Serious discussion - What do you think? What do you want?
Comments
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Brace yourselves this post is going to be CONTROVERSIAL
I honestly stand by what we discussed before polleus about people forfeiting matches and such
1. make the tournament buy in...
the pro's: people will stick around so that they dont waste there money
the con's: the community of teams may be lighter
2. Make it all 1 division with several pools of however many teams
Make every match BO3's in order to ensure the best team wins: maps to be predetermined by mods
(Since there will only be 6 maps this allows teams to be able to review the demos that are no doubt going to be posted on the website when recording match wins/losses.. if they come across those teams later on and see there map strats the opposing team will have no choice but to change up what they do and the team playing them have the opportunity to anti tact, and vice versa... this keeps competition fresh and constantly changing)
3. Registered teams cost $50 each ($10 per player, + a reserved spot on the ringer list for all players if the player in question wishes to drop from the team) Teams must have 5 players on roster paid and active to be considered a team
4. Ringer Pool/List costs $5 a person to enter if the person does not have a team, if chosen for a team, the player must activate himself/herself on the roster of the team, to do this you must pay another $5(this will prevent team hopping as it will cost players an additional 5 dollars every time they hop teams)
Make a ringer pool and charge 5 dollars per entry. If on this list anyone whose team-less can hop on a team and stay on it via this list... this will take away any chance of a losing people from the community
5. LAN Playoffs: Since I already talked to you about this, and I'm not allowed to disclose, ill only go on about how I think this should be done
Arrange for 3 days booked at a LAN center, 1 day being an optional day for teams to meet up at the LAN center play some scrims and boot-camp to get prepared for the next day. This would be on a Friday
Saturday would be round robin day.. since I assume it will be an 8 team playoffs make it a round robin with the top 4 teams moving on to Sunday in a page playoff format, with tiebreakers (if necessary) going on late into the night
Sunday Would be the page play off day, as determined by ranking the number 1 seed team plays the number 2 seed team with choice of first map and side going to the rank number 1 team, the team will move on to the finals awaiting the winner of the semi finals, the loser drops to the semi final bracket awaiting the winner of the 3 seed and 4 seed game
in the 3 4 game the loser is knocked out of the tournament and winner goes on to play the loser of the 1 2 game in the semi finals..
the winner of the semi finals goes on to play the winner of the 1 2 game in the finals..
The winner of the finals determined by 1 Best of 3 match is crowned winner of the season
Optional: Winner take all prize pool
or
Optional: Rank 1 wins 65% of the prize pool
Rank 2 Wins 25% of the prize pool
Rank 3 Wins 10% of the prize pool
Optional:
6. If a team completes all matches in a season a percentage of the teams fund ($50 or however much the teams account is up too based on ringers and so fourth) determined by the administration will be returned to the team to be split evenly between the team, If a team forfeits more then 1 match, the team also forfeits there refund.
7. If a team opts that they cant make the LAN event, the team with the next best score as determined by seasonal play will be invited to the LAN event
Sounds difficult doesn't it?
Thats what Microsoft Excel is for!
My 2 cents, which is completely up for debate of course -
6. If a team completes all matches in a season a percentage of the teams fund ($50 or however much the teams account is up too based on ringers and so fourth) determined by the administration will be returned to the team to be split evenly between the team, If a team forfeits more then 1 match, the team also forfeits there refund.
This makes sense. Would make more sense to allow for a 1-2 match leniency. -
I liked the ring pool idea. Also had no idea esg was thinking about lan play offs? Or is that just something you would want?
Basically I've said to people that IF and when the opportunity presents itself for CF LANs, we wouldn't rule it out. That's something I'd like to eventually see us doing if things pan out right. -
.....
1.No one is gonna invest into a product if they aren't sure about the quality No one
2.Whats the point of several pools especially if its only s1 or s2
3. Read point 1 over to your self make sure you can comprehend what was said and move on to point 4
4. The idea of paying to ring is absolutely asinine.
5. Your way to far ahead of your self this should be talked about after about 3 or four seasons.
6. I don't have to comment on this just read point 1
7. Read point 5Drafts always go wrong without an anti-cheat.
Only if the draft mods don't have common sense.
pretty sure hexus draft was ok without and anti cheat and so where early eg drafts -
that's the dumbest thing you've ever said in your entire slanteyed life
why are you here ?
i thought you quit?
how you doing in COD 4 ?
how good are you at COD 4?
Can i be your friend?
can i have your account?
what does polish food taste like ?
pahahaha. lol. sorry dellz i had to
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altBLACKOUT wrote: »i know this is realllllllly looking into the future and i probably wont get a response, but if ESG was to make the playoffs on LAN would nationality be an issue? thats really my biggest concern for that...
I would assume that if it was on lan it wouldn't be, the nationality issue with lans like WCG is they are actual nations playing.
If you were from a different nation on an ESG lan it is up to you to pay for your trip and passport. Not them. That's what sponsors are for. -
I would assume that if it was on lan it wouldn't be, the nationality issue with lans like WCG is they are actual nations playing.
If you were from a different nation on an ESG lan it is up to you to pay for your trip and passport. Not them. That's what sponsors are for.
ya, to be able to go away for the weekend, assuming you need to pay for hotel and food, flight ticket and w.e eles, prob would be in the range of 1000-2000$ per player.. and unless there was some GOOD prize money at stake... then i dont know how many teams would actually go to playoffs. -
altBLACKOUT wrote: »ya, to be able to go away for the weekend, assuming you need to pay for hotel and food, flight ticket and w.e eles, prob would be in the range of 1000-2000$ per player.. and unless there was some GOOD prize money at stake... then i dont know how many teams would actually go to playoffs.
LAN's generally get deals on reserved bulk hotel rooms, it would save players money, food isn't too bad.
And again, with teams going to lan they will generally be sponsored by organizations that will pay lan fees. -
but anyways, after reading most of the posts, i think just 4 pools in ONE division would be very nice. 2 top teams from each pool go to playoffs, 2 wildcards. top 2 teams with best records, rounds for and rounds against all that jazz, get a bye to the quarter finals. 6-8 map rotation. buy in of 50$ per team.
@POLLEUS- Do you plan on having some sort of tournament to test this all out in january? if so, u should make it early january.. it would totally make my christmas break xD , anyways, very exited to find out some information on the 1st REAL league to pick up this game haha :P -
altBLACKOUT wrote: »but anyways, after reading most of the posts, i think just 4 pools in ONE division would be very nice. 2 top teams from each pool go to playoffs, 2 wildcards. top 2 teams with best records, rounds for and rounds against all that jazz, get a bye to the quarter finals. 6-8 map rotation. buy in of 50$ per team.
@POLLEUS- Do you plan on having some sort of tournament to test this all out in january? if so, u should make it early january.. it would totally make my christmas break xD
Everything hinges on the anti cheat and website being absolutely prepared, tested, and fully functioning, I'd rather them purposefully delay to early or mid feb to ensure everything is absolutely flawless. -
Everything hinges on the anti cheat and website being absolutely prepared, tested, and fully functioning, I'd rather them purposefully delay to early or mid feb to ensure everything is absolutely flawless.
ya true, id also like to read some of LL's and hammertimes opinions on what esg should do! -
I'll keep this as SHORT as possible. You'll NEVER combat FFW/FFL. Even when we had one league in CF with WOGL's entry tournament we had no show's. Your going to have it, no matter the slice. 50% through the season teams drop. It happens in every league, no matter the title.
Splitting the League(s) keeps the skilled class more matched.
PRO's- More competitive field of play
- Higher growth rate of teams/players
- Sandbagging teams; Throwing seasons to be relegated
- Once teams see there's no playoff options they quit
One League; One Field does nothing for the top tier field of players.
PRO's- Newer, or sub average players get a chance to learn from better players
- Less organization and moderation
- Top tier teams seem to get bored quicker with shutout matches
- The field quits faster when they're paired with 2 or more top tier teams
Like I said; Your not going to stop teams from quitting. They're going to do so, and it all occurs at the half way mark in any season. The best way to combat it is with methods you and I [Kris and myself] have discussed with player pools. It's not about active teams as much as it is active members.
My vote is splitting the field.
For the first month or two run cups similar to ESL. In these cups keep records on the teams and players. From this information you can better divide the field(s); Activity, difficulty, etc... Just because he's good, but only shows up for 2 of 8 preliminary events doesn't make him a 'Pro League' player; Commitment & Skill-Level. I wouldn't jump into ANY league until you have a firm grasp on the field of players and the community. Compile YOUR information, then make your choice. NEVER result to a vote or even persuasion of the community. YOU run the league; THEY play in your league. THEY have no say in how ANY of the elite events of CF are run, yet EVERYONE wants to play in them; ie. WCG. Just organize it to be proper and people will play. People WILL appose. People will agree. Just put on your big boy pants and run the events to your knowledge, and planned system. Do you ask people for better ways in which you can do your job in security? -
I'll keep this as SHORT as possible. You'll NEVER combat FFW/FFL. Even when we had one league in CF with WOGL's entry tournament we had no show's. Your going to have it, no matter the slice. 50% through the season teams drop. It happens in every league, no matter the title.
Splitting the League(s) keeps the skilled class more matched.
PRO's- More competitive field of play
- Higher growth rate of teams/players
- Sandbagging teams; Throwing seasons to be relegated
- Once teams see there's no playoff options they quit
One League; One Field does nothing for the top tier field of players.
PRO's- Newer, or sub average players get a chance to learn from better players
- Less organization and moderation
- Top tier teams seem to get bored quicker with shutout matches
- The field quits faster when they're paired with 2 or more top tier teams
Like I said; Your not going to stop teams from quitting. They're going to do so, and it all occurs at the half way mark in any season. The best way to combat it is with methods you and I [Kris and myself] have discussed with player pools. It's not about active teams as much as it is active members.
My vote is splitting the field.
For the first month or two run cups similar to ESL. In these cups keep records on the teams and players. From this information you can better divide the field(s); Activity, difficulty, etc... Just because he's good, but only shows up for 2 of 8 preliminary events doesn't make him a 'Pro League' player; Commitment & Skill-Level. I wouldn't jump into ANY league until you have a firm grasp on the field of players and the community. Compile YOUR information, then make your choice. NEVER result to a vote or even persuasion of the community. YOU run the league; THEY play in your league. THEY have no say in how ANY of the elite events of CF are run, yet EVERYONE wants to play in them; ie. WCG. Just organize it to be proper and people will play. People WILL appose. People will agree. Just put on your big boy pants and run the events to your knowledge, and planned system. Do you ask people for better ways in which you can do your job in security?
Nice to see we can finally agree on something
the only thing id like to see is make the invite/pro division competitive to make the spaces fought for.. for example if a team goes like 0-12 or whatever the divisions size is... the next season there going to be dropped to open, this goes for the top 4 open teams and the bottom 4 pro teams.
That way open is constantly competitive because they want to make money go to LANS and such the only way they can do that is be in the invite/pro division -
But that puts pressure on teams. What's the point of rushing in 2 matches. That puts them in a position that they may have to play on Friday Night and Saturday Night. Most people tend to go out on those days.
the way ESEA does it is they give teams like 2-5 matches to play against teams by a certain date, that means you can quickly schedule all your matches and get them done in a day or space them out to your liking... giving players free reign and control over there matches instead of committing to a Sunday is so much more easier for teams especially the ones with conflicting schedules on weekends
The way the system can work... 1 team proposes a time, if the other team does not respond to the time given for 2 days(or what ever seems just) then that date becomes a default day, obviously the match must be scheduled 4 days from its announcement it cant be scheduled a day after the deadline for it is released -
I'll keep this as SHORT as possible. You'll NEVER combat FFW/FFL. Even when we had one league in CF with WOGL's entry tournament we had no show's. Your going to have it, no matter the slice. 50% through the season teams drop. It happens in every league, no matter the title.
Splitting the League(s) keeps the skilled class more matched.
PRO's
More competitive field of play
Higher growth rate of teams/players
CON's
Sandbagging teams; Throwing seasons to be relegated
Once teams see there's no playoff options they quit
One League; One Field does nothing for the top tier field of players.
PRO's
Newer, or sub average players get a chance to learn from better players
Less organization and moderation
CON's
Top tier teams seem to get bored quicker with shutout matches
The field quits faster when they're paired with 2 or more top tier teams
i disagree with just about everything you said.
first, on "splitting leagues". you say splitting leagues keeps the skill matched and has more competitive field of play - i say you can have this in "one league" too. i'll explain later.
then you go on to say there's a higher growth rate in teams/players. i assume by this you mean that teams and players that are currently playing the league will become better. i don't understand how you think teams that are in open are going to get better by playing other open teams.
onto the cons, i don't know why anyone would sandbag. that doesn't make sense at all, where's the motive? if you want to get bumped down, would it not be easier to just not play? then you go onto say that teams quit when they realize they aren't making playoffs. how is this any different then "one league"? it's not...
--
onto "one league"
a lot of stuff you said earlier and say in this section goes hand in hand (all of which i don't agree with). you said that separate leagues has more evenly matched games, more competitive field of whatever. now you also mention that it does nothing for top tier players and that they bored with shutouts and that the teams they shut out are more inclined to quit. all of that goes hand in hand and is an easy fix:
you have on league. you setup the matches. after week 1 you're either going to have teams with 1 win / 0 loss or teams with 0 win / 1 loss. so for week 2, you just match teams with similar stats. 1-0 teams face each other, 0-1 teams face each other. the following week, 2-0 teams face each other, 1-1 teams face each other, 0-2 teams face each other. to match teams up even more evenly, you can go based on how many rounds they got. I don't know, seems simple to me.
the one part i do agree on is that it is less orderly and can seem chaotic. probably more work for the staff also.
and also, the security job analogy was wack and doesn't make sense either. -
Nice to see we can finally agree on something
the only thing id like to see is make the invite/pro division competitive to make the spaces fought for.. for example if a team goes like 0-12 or whatever the divisions size is... the next season there going to be dropped to open, this goes for the top 4 open teams and the bottom 4 pro teams.
That way open is constantly competitive because they want to make money go to LANS and such the only way they can do that is be in the invite/pro division
I couldn't agree more. That Premier/Invite group has GOT TO BE the absolute best. The best teams. The best organizations. Far beyond talent, but in the form they can kind of hold it together at a premier/invite level. They aren't just handed the slots because the lucked out in an event and had an easy ride, swept to the finals. -
i disagree with just about everything you said.
first, on "splitting leagues". you say splitting leagues keeps the skill matched and has more competitive field of play - i say you can have this in "one league" too. i'll explain later.
then you go on to say there's a higher growth rate in teams/players. i assume by this you mean that teams and players that are currently playing the league will become better. i don't understand how you think teams that are in open are going to get better by playing other open teams.
onto the cons, i don't know why anyone would sandbag. that doesn't make sense at all, where's the motive? if you want to get bumped down, would it not be easier to just not play? then you go onto say that teams quit when they realize they aren't making playoffs. how is this any different then "one league"? it's not...
--
onto "one league"
a lot of stuff you said earlier and say in this section goes hand in hand (all of which i don't agree with). you said that separate leagues has more evenly matched games, more competitive field of whatever. now you also mention that it does nothing for top tier players and that they bored with shutouts and that the teams they shut out are more inclined to quit. all of that goes hand in hand and is an easy fix:
you have on league. you setup the matches. after week 1 you're either going to have teams with 1 win / 0 loss or teams with 0 win / 1 loss. so for week 2, you just match teams with similar stats. 1-0 teams face each other, 0-1 teams face each other. the following week, 2-0 teams face each other, 1-1 teams face each other, 0-2 teams face each other. to match teams up even more evenly, you can go based on how many rounds they got. I don't know, seems simple to me.
the one part i do agree on is that it is less orderly and can seem chaotic. probably more work for the staff also.
and also, the security job analogy was wack and doesn't make sense either.
I really can't sit here and delve in a debate. Merely ask questions that are to be thought upon and not answered;- What does a team like Hammertime/LifeLine GAIN from playing a team who's non-experienced? HOW can you justify the strength of your strategy [in play] on a weak opposition; And vice versa on an opposition far more experienced in play?
As far as scheduling; You can't pair matchings each week. You'd hear more scrutiny of biased picks, favoritism, etc..etc...You generate one schedule and the system works itself. I see the concept, but there's more flaws in that idea than proactive movement.
And the analogy; I didn't think it was that hard to grasp. To address that, and I'm going to do so rather rudely. Why the f%ck would I go to someone say as yourself regarding a matter in marketing; Or to translate here, league organization? You've got no experience in organizing a league. How is YOUR word credible? Your painting a picture with no idea how or what is plausible. Yes, it's one thing to take feedback. But when things become a DISCUSSION, your wishes become demands. Aggressive means to have your point not only heard, but understood and implemented; Means of coaxing. Frankly, I'd prefer to operate under a system that's designed in-house, by administrators who created it upon their knowledge. MAKE YOUR ORGANIZATION YOURS, not someone else's...
I wouldn't go to Kris and tell him how to be a better security officer, or my opinions. I'm not a security officer...
He is the administrator. We are the players.... -
I really can't sit here and delve in a debate. Merely ask questions that are to be thought upon and not answered;
What does a team like Hammertime/LifeLine GAIN from playing a team who's non-experienced? HOW can you justify the strength of your strategy [in play] on a weak opposition; And vice versa on an opposition far more experienced in play?
Growth is gradual. You work your way up in systems. You work with what's beneficial. Is it beneficial for a team to lose in and out against a HT/LL every week? What party wins there?
As far as scheduling; You can't pair matchings each week. You'd hear more scrutiny of biased picks, favoritism, etc..etc...You generate one schedule and the system works itself. I see the concept, but there's more flaws in that idea than proactive movement.
Ok, first off, neither Hammertime or LifeLine are unbeatable teams. Neither of them are absolute powerhouses right now, so I don't know why you keep putting them on that pedestal. They did great @ WCG, I have friends in both teams, and I'm proud of them, but hyping them up to be something they're not is dumb. No offense to either team.
I don't understand how you figure a losing team would face HT/LL every week in my system.
Nor do I understand why you don't think you can pair matching every week. How is there favoritism when the matches are determined by the team's stats?
Not to mention you guys are so worried about teams going inactive. With your set schedule, a team could go inactive within the first few weeks and still have matches (forfiets) all the way up until the final week. My system would weed those teams out and they'd fall to the bottom of the league.
There may be flaws in my system, but you didn't point any out.
And back to your analogy. So many holes, I don't even know where to start. You're right, this is Polleus's league and he should run it however he wants. I agree, but... HOLE#1, he's asking for feedback and I'm giving it to him. HOLE#2, I may be wrong, but I think this is his first go @ running a league, so really he doesn't have much more experience then I do, now does he? No offenseive, Polleus, you know I love what you're doing. ;D HOLE#3, I don't have to be a cook to know how to crack an egg. I can go on and on...
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