Serious discussion - What do you think? What do you want?
![[MOD]Polleus](https://forum.z8games.com/uploads/customavatars/7/navatar_8918107.gif){kind=avatar}
Incoming wall-of-text. Please take this seriously, I would appreciate it.
A few of us have been mulling this over for quite some time now and with input from a few outside players, I'm again curious to see what you as players think on this subject. Please take some time to consider the situation/options I describe before answering, as BOTH have pros and cons.
For at least the first season or two, what do you think is the best direction to take in terms of divisions for the League?
1) Classic thought is an Open Division and an Upper Division, to separate the skill gap that already exists in our community. That way, the bad-average teams don't get continuously stomped game after game by the better teams that would be in a single pool of teams. We'd have to have some sort of placement tournament(s) to award spots to an Upper Division and we would go from there.
2) I have also had suggested to me that it would be a bad idea to break up the divisions early. Some say that dividing teams (in this community) so early as WOGL and ESL did, will only result in negative ways. The Upper division should not only be a representation of skill, but also a representation of stable, reputable teams who have not only earned the right to be there by way of skill but also by way of team conduct (consistently competing without falling apart every 2-6 weeks).
Keeping the teams in a single pool would establish a core group of teams that could LATER be separated 1-2 seasons down the road. The negative to this is that the bad-average teams now in the same pool as the good teams, will have a much harder time and will either be forced to get better (either through practice and related means) or continue losing, which would lead to teams inevitably quitting (as we've all seen in the past).
Now taking into account how this community has handled competition before, we all know that there are a lot of teams that start and die very quickly. Seasons in the past always ended with a lot of forfeits and teams just falling apart, even in the P divisions. Do I believe that was because the teams were split too early without proving themselves consistent teams? Yes. I do think some consideration should be taken before dividing teams up, even though the skill gap already exists.
Would the lower tier teams get the short straw in a single division league (until a core group of teams prove themselves for an upper division)? For sure. Would a multiple division season benefit a lot of the younger teams early on? For sure. But we have to weigh the factors in what our end goals are and that's building a more stable group of teams that can fuel the future of CF competition consistently and not have the season end in 50% or more teams forfeiting games/matches/etc.
Weigh in your thoughts. Serious discussion please. Thanks everyone.
A few of us have been mulling this over for quite some time now and with input from a few outside players, I'm again curious to see what you as players think on this subject. Please take some time to consider the situation/options I describe before answering, as BOTH have pros and cons.
For at least the first season or two, what do you think is the best direction to take in terms of divisions for the League?
1) Classic thought is an Open Division and an Upper Division, to separate the skill gap that already exists in our community. That way, the bad-average teams don't get continuously stomped game after game by the better teams that would be in a single pool of teams. We'd have to have some sort of placement tournament(s) to award spots to an Upper Division and we would go from there.
2) I have also had suggested to me that it would be a bad idea to break up the divisions early. Some say that dividing teams (in this community) so early as WOGL and ESL did, will only result in negative ways. The Upper division should not only be a representation of skill, but also a representation of stable, reputable teams who have not only earned the right to be there by way of skill but also by way of team conduct (consistently competing without falling apart every 2-6 weeks).
Keeping the teams in a single pool would establish a core group of teams that could LATER be separated 1-2 seasons down the road. The negative to this is that the bad-average teams now in the same pool as the good teams, will have a much harder time and will either be forced to get better (either through practice and related means) or continue losing, which would lead to teams inevitably quitting (as we've all seen in the past).
Now taking into account how this community has handled competition before, we all know that there are a lot of teams that start and die very quickly. Seasons in the past always ended with a lot of forfeits and teams just falling apart, even in the P divisions. Do I believe that was because the teams were split too early without proving themselves consistent teams? Yes. I do think some consideration should be taken before dividing teams up, even though the skill gap already exists.
Would the lower tier teams get the short straw in a single division league (until a core group of teams prove themselves for an upper division)? For sure. Would a multiple division season benefit a lot of the younger teams early on? For sure. But we have to weigh the factors in what our end goals are and that's building a more stable group of teams that can fuel the future of CF competition consistently and not have the season end in 50% or more teams forfeiting games/matches/etc.
Weigh in your thoughts. Serious discussion please. Thanks everyone.
Comments
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[11:57] Polleus: I think it's a good idea. Here's why:
If we split up divisions too early, we don't provide any "barrier" for bad-average teams to get better. What happened in WOGL-O/ESL-O and then respective P divisions.....
[11:57] Polleus: the O teams continued to be bad
[11:57] Polleus: and the P teams just left them in the dust
[11:58] Polleus: We keep it to one division
[11:58] Polleus: We develop a CORE group of good teams
[11:58] Polleus: eventually
[11:59] DatMuffin.nimu: The reality of that is it's still the good teams that are going win regardless.
[12:00] DatMuffin.nimu: If we put all of the teams in one divison the good teams will just win it over and over anyway.
[12:00] DatMuffin.nimu: If we split it up the good teams fight it out like they usually do, and the bad/average teams battle it out,
[12:00] DatMuffin.nimu: The only skill gap comes from who they practice against, not match day.
[12:01] DatMuffin.nimu: This isn't source. Everyone scrims each other in echo-8 regardless.
[12:01] DatMuffin.nimu: Whether we put them together or seperate there will still be a skill gap, unless I'm misunderstanding the point.
[12:02] Polleus: [12:58] doop: issue from NOT separating the good from the bad
[12:58] doop: is the bad teams will get stomped
[12:59] doop: but if you separate them the bad teams wont get better
[12:02] DatMuffin.nimu: How will they not get better? That's the dumbest thing I've heard. P and O still scrim each other in echo 8, they still practice together.
[12:03] DatMuffin.nimu: One match doesn't determine a skill gap.
[12:03] DatMuffin.nimu: They don't PRACTICE and get better in leagues.
[12:06] Polleus: Well, I think his main point is the fact that if we separate them too early, just like ESL did.... We end up with an unpredictable group of teams in our Main division. We don't want where every other game is a forfeit in the Main division. WOGL and ESL were the same way. There IS something to be said about banking on teams early.
[12:07] DatMuffin.nimu: That I understand, that is STABILITY. Not SKILL.
[12:07] DatMuffin.nimu: That's just a matter of not having a bunch of randy 2 week teams.
[12:08] Polleus: Yep. The skill gap is already there. However, in the interest of building stability, do we want to bank on teams into a Main division so early without having proved themselves stable enough of a Main division.... THAT is my concern.
We want to establish the Main division as a privilege to teams who have earned it, not just through beating the HUGE field of bad teams we have in CF.
[12:08] DatMuffin.nimu: I didn't say having a single division up first was a bad thing, I kinda like the idea. But the logic he used for it was flawed. -
To be honest with you for the first two seasons keeping everyone in one division will be OK.
What so bad about bad teams practicing more to get better and beat the stronger teams
In terms of promoting teams from one division to another
I think the standard
1st and 2nd place promotion is good enough. -
vomitbombs wrote: »To be honest with you for the first two seasons keeping everyone in one division will be OK.
What so bad about bad teams practicing more to get better and beat the stronger teams
In terms of promoting teams from one division to another
I think the standard
1st and 2nd place promotion is good enough.
How the hell do you get that?
practicing more to get better and beat the stronger teams
YOU DON'T PRACTICE IN LEAGUES. -
Make the divisions 2nd season, but 1st, don't put the average teams vs the better teams in the schedule that much. Maybe 1 or 2 clashes average vs better per team for some practice on the "big stage" vs better teams, to see how they would fare in a real match, plus the possibility of an upset. When playoffs come, make sure the average teams that make it, assuming they don't finish at the top, at least get something in return, possibly some ZP prizes etc. Better chance they won't disband, and look forward to the next season, and how they can get better by then!
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How the hell do you get that?
practicing more to get better and beat the stronger teams
YOU DON'T PRACTICE IN LEAGUES.
I'm sorry I didn't realize that going over strats nade spots rotations and site holds along with utilizing said things in echo scrims wasn't practicing.
Not to mention using match media @ your advantage in terms of studying how the other team rotates etc
Obviously when I say practice I don't mean practice in the league are you ****ing stupid or do you lack basic comprehension skills? -
Make the divisions 2nd season, but 1st, don't put the average teams vs the better teams in the schedule. Maybe 1 or 2 clashes average vs better for some practice on the "big stage" vs better teams, to see how they would fare in a real match, plus the possibility of an upset. When playoffs come, make sure the average teams that make it, assuming they don't finish at the top, at least get something in return, possibly some ZP prizes etc.
But then we're babying the average teams aren't we? I think one pool would be good. The good teams would be good and the weak teams will be weeded out. There wouldn't be any two week teams that stay just to get their asses handed to them on a silver platter, but there would be average teams who would stay in hopes of getting more league experience and would drive them to try and get better. Hopefully coming back next season. -
But then we're babying the average teams aren't we? I think one pool would be good. The good teams would be good and the weak teams will be weeded out. There wouldn't be any two week teams that stay just to get their asses handed to them on a silver platter, but there would be average teams who would stay in hopes of getting more league experience and would drive them to try and get better. Hopefully coming back next season.
It's been proven. Teams that get their asses handed to them for a few weeks straight in leagues, tend to give up, disband, and forfeit. This would only be for one season, to give the average teams some confidence to stick around, and the better teams would more than likely end up placing higher, but the other teams would also feel good about themselves. Then the split up division wise, you know how it goes from there -
Start with ONE division this first season to establish the "already" competitive players/teams from the "players/teams who need to work their way up."
Having a P and an O division would show extreme bias and favoritism towards certain teams.
Teams should qualify for P during this first season (Maybe that can be your prize for this first season... ESG P status (:...) -
This may come as a surprise to some people but league play is very different from scrim play. I can honestly say that league play makes teams and players become better much faster than than casual play.
Most of the players I consider top-tier in this game have considerable league experience.
Consequently, teams with players that have no league experience tend to get rocked in the first season they play, becoming much better with the more exposure to league play they get. -
It's been proven. Teams that get their asses handed to them for a few weeks straight in leagues, tend to give up, disband, and forfeit.
That said it would be a veritable trial by fire for the "newer" teams to see who is actually committed. Which seems to be no one in this game >.< -
vomitbombs wrote: »I'm sorry I didn't realize that going over strats nade spots rotations and site holds along with utilizing said things in echo scrims wasn't practicing.
Not to mention using match media @ your advantage in terms of studying how the other team rotates etc
Obviously when I say practice I don't mean practice in the league are you ****ing stupid or do you lack basic comprehension skills?
To be honest with you for the first two seasons keeping everyone in one division will be OK.
What so bad about bad teams practicing more to get better and beat the stronger teams
It seemed implied by your statement
suaf.commandchannel.com 31286 it's mumbleDo you have a ventrilo or a mumble server to chat about this? I have a lot to say that would take an awfully long time to write in a concise manner.But then we're babying the average teams aren't we? I think one pool would be good. The good teams would be good and the weak teams will be weeded out. There wouldn't be any two week teams that stay just to get their asses handed to them on a silver platter, but there would be average teams who would stay in hopes of getting more league experience and would drive them to try and get better. Hopefully coming back next season.
I agree, basically just one big placement season. -
throneofGod wrote: »with such a small community there is no point of having two divisions. Having two divisions will just promote the bad teams to win something while being bad. who wants to find out who is the best of the terrible teams? nobody
But it's that 1% of good teams that roflstomp everyone else that makes all the "bad teams" quit after two weeks as they see no point in playing. -
This may come as a surprise to some people but league play is very different from scrim play. I can honestly say that league play makes teams and players become better much faster than than casual play.
Most of the players I consider top-tier in this game have considerable league experience.
Consequently, teams with players that have no league experience tend to get rocked in the first season they play, becoming much better with the more exposure to league play they get.
League play isn't particularly different. It has a bit more of a tryhard feel to it, but this isn't 1.6 or source, the same teams you face in echo 8 are the same teams you will be playing in league, there aren't a lot of teams.
The reality is league play in this game would be quite similar to just plain scrimming. -
Doesn't really make sense, it doesn't matter which option you choose, because they're practically the same.
For the first option, you're going to have to determine a way to separate the two divisions, and i can only think of two ways. One, you select the teams yourself who you think deserves to play in the "pro/invite" division (stupid idea). Two, you run some sort of placement. PLACEMENT. So already your doing the same thing option two is suggesting anyways.
Correct me if I'm wrong or missing something? -
League play isn't particularly different. It has a bit more of a tryhard feel to it, but this isn't 1.6 or source, the same teams you face in echo 8 are the same teams you will be playing in league, there aren't a lot of teams.
The reality is league play in this game would be quite similar to just plain scrimming.
But it's the atmosphere of league play that makes people bring their A game. Or so one would hope. It would be different in that there's something more at stake than just a nice GG at the end. -
throneofGod wrote: »with such a small community there is no point of having two divisions. Having two divisions will just promote the bad teams to win something while being bad. who wants to find out who is the best of the terrible teams? nobody
Here we go again with the idiotic responses from myawm. Two divisions make the chances of teams lasting longer, higher. When you pin average vs average, and then take the top 2 or 3 teams from that season, put them in P, you end up either replacing any P teams that are no more, or even adding more competition. -
But it's that 1% of good teams that roflstomp everyone else that makes all the "bad teams" quit after two weeks as they see no point in playing.
let them quit. they'll remake another team anyway and if they have no plans in getting better then let them be -
Here we go again with the idiotic responses from myawm. Two divisions make the chances of teams lasting longer, higher. When you pin average vs average, and then take the top 2 or 3 teams from that season, put them in P, you end up either replacing any P teams that are no more, or even adding more competition.
don't question me child. this is all opinionated -
throneofGod wrote: »let them quit. they'll remake a another team anyway and if they have no plans in getting better then let them be
Thats exactly what Polleus is trying to avoid. He wants to encourage teams to stick with it and get better. At the moment there is no incentive for average teams to get better as the "good" teams just beat them every game. -
throneofGod wrote: »with such a small community there is no point of having two divisions. Having two divisions will just promote the bad teams to win something while being bad. who wants to find out who is the best of the terrible teams? nobody
Very good point. Thats why the prize for winning ESG-O should be a ESG-P spot.
ESG-P teams who rank the worst (preferably the last two) are bumped down to ESG-O.
(Real prizes should be handed to the elite players. The ones who will represent us at LAN. (: )
(However, it all depends on how many teams we have and how serious teams become... because the community is indeed pretty small compared to others.) -
But it's the atmosphere of league play that makes people bring their A game. Or so one would hope. It would be different in that there's something more at stake than just a nice GG at the end.
what this man said, and not only that.
people take scrim in echo8 just for fun, league matches they would pratice for it which would involve trying they strats in scrims in e8(it would help improve echo8scrims) -
You're pretty much correct, and I already pointed that out.Doesn't really make sense, it doesn't matter which option you choose, because they're practically the same.
For the first option, you're going to have to determine a way to separate the two divisions, and i can only think of two ways. One, you select the teams yourself who you think deserves to play in the "pro/invite" division (stupid idea). Two, you run some sort of placement. PLACEMENT. So already your doing the same thing option two is suggesting anyways.
Correct me if I'm wrong or missing something?
[12:17] Polleus: I'm just saying it's something to think about. Do we want to establish a "Main" division so early, with hardly any team proving themselves on a real client? Without proving they can keep it together throughout a season? etc. I'll take your honest thoughts on it too. We need to have a meeting about this
[12:17] Polleus: All of us
[12:17] DatMuffin.nimu: ...
[12:17] DatMuffin.nimu: we wouldn't even do it that way rofl
[12:17] DatMuffin.nimu: if we picked a bunch of teams and put them in main everyone would ***** about favoritism, or getting paid.
[12:18] DatMuffin.nimu: And to be honest I agree, that just looks unethical and stupid.
[12:18] Polleus: We want the "Main" division to actually mean something, where in WOGL and ESL it didn't.
[12:18] DatMuffin.nimu: We have two choices in my personal opinion, placement tournament preseason, or one divison, that gets divided later.
[12:18] DatMuffin.nimu: placement tournament makes it more prestigious but takes longer, and is more effort.
[12:19] DatMuffin.nimu: One division is simplier, but would get a bit hectic at times.
Don't start sh*t suko.Here we go again with the idiotic responses from myawm. Two divisions make the chances of teams lasting longer, higher. When you pin average vs average, and then take the top 2 or 3 teams from that season, put them in P, you end up either replacing any P teams that are no more, or even adding more competition. -
what this man said, and not only that.
people take scrim in echo8 just for fun, league matches they would pratice for it which would involve trying they strats in scrims in e8(it would help improve echo8scrims)
League play is in no way bad for anyone, it's exactly like a sports tournament anywhere's else. People come to win, not d!ck around with an uzi. -
throneofGod wrote: »don't question me child. this is all opinionated
Don't call me child when my common sense and knowledge are light years ahead of where you will ever be.
Sure, everyones opinions on how it should go. All you are contributing is negativity. Not helping at all. You say your negative opinions about everyone besides yourself and don't back them up with any DECENT points. -
Don't call me child when my common sense and knowledge are light years ahead of where you will ever be.
Sure, everyones opinions on how it should go. All you are contributing is negativity. Not helping at all. You say your negative opinions about everyone besides yourself and don't back them up with any DECENT points.
Regardless of who started it, this conversation between the two of you is not helping this thread. Ignore each other before Polleus cleans it up. -
Very good point. Thats why the prize for winning ESG-O should be a ESG-P spot.
ESG-P teams who rank the worst (preferably the last two) are bumped down to ESG-O.
(Real prizes should be handed to the elite players. The ones who will represent us at LAN. (: )
(However, it all depends on how many teams we have and how serious teams become... because the community is indeed pretty small compared to others.)
this seems like the most logical thing to do. if by any chance you're planning to have an O division then the only prize should be a movement up to P and replace the team that did the worst in the loser's bracket and maybe even some zp i suppose. Imo if you are planning to separate the league into two divisions then make this first one a placement cup just like others have mentioned.
This discussion has been closed.
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