For saidin
Since now Crossfire is coming alive again. ( somewhat) are you going to actually give our side of the game more opportunity for things? I mean 4,000 people watching crossfire is actually very surprising and Im seeing alot of old players start to play again.
Now with that said. WCG brought the game back to life. But now its pretty much over, where do YOU go from here? Dont let the game die, get someone or something rolling with a ACTUAL system or leagues.
People are talking and getting excited for the game again, dont let it die out
Now with that said. WCG brought the game back to life. But now its pretty much over, where do YOU go from here? Dont let the game die, get someone or something rolling with a ACTUAL system or leagues.
People are talking and getting excited for the game again, dont let it die out
Comments
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What people need to understand is, Z8GAMES makes money on pubstars. They don't make sh1t on competitive community.
As much as I'd love to see leagues coming out for this game, I find it highly unlike. Could be because I was really hyped about it last year after WCG and we all know that nothing came out of it. -
PimpDemNike5 wrote: »What people need to understand is, Z8GAMES makes money on pubstars. They don't make sh1t on competitive community. They have no business here anyways. As much as I'd love to see leagues coming out for this game, I find it highly unlike. Could be because I was really hyped up about last year's WCG and we all know that nothing came out of it.
yay, pubstarpride. -
You'd think someone would create a league. What I personally would prefer would be long standing leagues(such as a schedule of say 20 matches over 20 weeks) then lan for the top 5/6 for a prize. But the players don't have the tools to organize and pay prizes and z8 won't. Between a rock and hardplace. That allows two lans a year with say 12 weeks off.
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It's looked pretty much dead all day. It was the same 4 people in e8 for who knows how long. It's sad to see 25 rooms, none of which S&D there.
e8 is dead now, its pretty much all BRs thinking they are good. I gotta say after a year of being away i come back and this game is pretty much empty of all skilled players. honestly the servers are dead at night and the only people around are BRs/EGY -
e8 is dead now, its pretty much all BRs thinking they are good. I gotta say after a year of being away i come back and this game is pretty much empty of all skilled players. honestly the servers are dead at night and the only people around are BRs/EGY
go play clan server. Scrimming e8 is pointless when 50% of the people who get on from 6-9 having blatant cheaters who suck on bandi.
but +1 for a league. -
sukodaworst wrote: »go play clan server. Scrimming e8 is pointless when 50% of the people who get on from 6-9 having blatant cheaters who suck on bandi.
but +1 for a league.
my 1st comment applies to the clan server, it is slightly better but the sheer number of noob clans is astounding. Its the matchup u'll get 75% of the time -
You'd think someone would create a league. What I personally would prefer would be long standing leagues(such as a schedule of say 20 matches over 20 weeks) then lan for the top 5/6 for a prize. But the players don't have the tools to organize and pay prizes and z8 won't. Between a rock and hardplace. That allows two lans a year with say 12 weeks off.
mitch honestly this could work. To keep cf alive you have to have something people are willing to stick around for.
What happened to esl anti cheat -
StanishBeast wrote: »are you going to actually give our side of the game more opportunity for things?
What do you mean by this?
Game content?
As shown by this past weekends events the content of the game is pretty much all there. From a content perspective, I'm not sure what more the game needs to have, especially when the top level of competition doesn't use that content anyways. (New SnD maps are sure to come, but are not necessary for competition)
Local CF Servers is likely not going to happen due to the nature of the online form of the game. The WCG Client from last year was still an online version of the game, just a closed server which Smilegate controls not it's publishers. LAN tournaments would likely still be held online. Though we here are exploring the possibilities.
The client crash (2 of them from what I can tell during the wcg finals) were unfortunate, however those client crashes would have been the same crashes in a close LAN client.
Hit registration is something we continue to talk to the developers with but is a product of so many factors that it is difficult to just have the developers up and "fix" it.
From a technological standpoint and server cost standpoint it doesn't make sense for us to have a VIP only server at the moment. We want to continue to encourage competitive play. But 50 players a server does not make, we can't afford to have that kind of dedication to a server with such a low turnout.
Weapon restricted servers is also not something Smilegate has coded into the game. Though in a closed tournament setting I don't see how self imposed rules on weapon restrictions can't be implemented. You see the player using an illegal weapon, so report them to whomever is running the tournament.
Armor is an issue, as that stuff is invisible. However if people are playing on a league with an anti-cheat chances are it can help to keep track of this stuff. Ideally we could find a way to display armor somewhere so people would know. But that hasn't been on a priority level with the developers.
Putting those aside, the fundamental basics for running leagues are in the game. We are hoping that exposure on this level (from wcg) will encourage some league owners to step up and look to start some leagues.
From our perspective, we do not have the staff here to run a full time league at the moment. We are working right now on nailing down some of the things like the clan ladder so that we can use those for closed leagues. We want to increase the competition and that is going to mean finding more teams to play, so we can start by encouraging clans within the game to cross that line. It's no different than how any other competitive game does it, they have the public ladder that everyone competes on and then from there the best of the best are chosen for events/tournaments.
We are not Riot, who economists are estimating makes between 3-5 and up to 10 million dollars per day. They can afford to continue to hire staff so that they have one community manager for every X number of people. And they can hire infinite staff to keep developing web systems, and the user base is so large that sponsor companies and broadcast channels are jumping at the chance. We have a few people here, when one of our web guys goes on vacation to be with his family we all pray the website doesn't go down because there's not many other people to help fix it! (try to be realistic about your expectations)
The problem right now is in how the game calculates matches. A Clan Match is considered 2 separate games not two separate halves, from that it is actually quite difficult to create the rules surrounding fair play.
Also this ideal clan ladder is not going to enforce any rules for weapon restrictions etc, as noted from above. The ladder also has no way of enforcing (beyond our hack report system) hackers. Which can affect the outcome of the ladder.
But there are also social problems, even teams who compete here have hacked within our game, we know this 100%. They may not have hacked in such and such a tournament, but they have hacked the game. Those players also trade accounts, share information and generally use fake info for accounts so that when we do want to create some sort of "Anti-Cheat, invite only bracket tournament" it becomes very difficult for us to find the clans.
So what we have is this:
No 3rd party company who has stepped up to hold their own leagues.
No full public ladder system that is iron clad against farming and/or hacking.
A small selection of people we can get in touch with who are a part of the top teams within the game.
The rest of the people remain unknown and anonymous, and don't stick together in clans, make it difficult for us to find them (by constantly changing nicknames, emails, alternate accounts), and/or hacking the game and/or getting banned for being trolls etc.
We have the ability to run a tournament, even if it's small for some real world prizes.
We also have the ability to host LAN parties, and have real world prizes. But you have continually made it clear to us that unless the game is on client or away from the servers that no one wants to participate.
In the end, we have the connection to the competitive community through here and any other 3rd party league that wants to run it. But what we get out of that communication is a lot of threats and a lot of negativity.
So if it's possible to get past the trolling, and the hacking and the name calling, and the "we hate z8games" discussion. Let's come up with things that you guys want to see us do.
For a positive final, yes it's our goal to continue on this wave of momentum. It may not happen as quickly as next week, but we would like to continue to see it improve.
And we would like to have tournaments or leagues or some sort of events with more than just zp prizes. Obviously the competitive community is playing for more than just a few free weapons in Cross Fire. We're aware of that, though ZP in any given tournament can help build momentum for future events.
That's fairly lengthy of a post so I'll leave it at that and let the discussion continue. -
pay prizes and z8 won't. Between a rock and hardplace.
Sorry for the double post.
This is not actually true. While a 1 million dollar tournament is probably pretty unlikely, real world prizes or money is not out of the question.
But the rock and the hard place is that we don't necessarily have the staff to host the leagues, and the league hosts are continually getting beaten down by the community.
Regardless of past drama with WOGL, the negative attitude of the community has affected the outcome of WOGL's future status with CF NA.
However, consider that CF EU hosts tournaments and leagues all the time with players who want to play. So does CF SA. And these tournaments and leagues run on different 3rd party platforms with sponsorship from us (in the case of SA) and SGI (in the case of EU).
We have the ability to sponsor these kinds of tournaments, but we have not seen one work properly for a long time.
Note that WCG, while we have full consulting ability with what happens with WCG is handled by Samsung, as far as the money and prizes. -
[GM]Saidin wrote: »What do you mean by this?
Game content?
As shown by this past weekends events the content of the game is pretty much all there. From a content perspective, I'm not sure what more the game needs to have, especially when the top level of competition doesn't use that content anyways. (New SnD maps are sure to come, but are not necessary for competition)
Local CF Servers is likely not going to happen due to the nature of the online form of the game. The WCG Client from last year was still an online version of the game, just a closed server which Smilegate controls not it's publishers. LAN tournaments would likely still be held online. Though we here are exploring the possibilities.
The client crash (2 of them from what I can tell during the wcg finals) were unfortunate, however those client crashes would have been the same crashes in a close LAN client.
Hit registration is something we continue to talk to the developers with but is a product of so many factors that it is difficult to just have the developers up and "fix" it.
From a technological standpoint and server cost standpoint it doesn't make sense for us to have a VIP only server at the moment. We want to continue to encourage competitive play. But 50 players a server does not make, we can't afford to have that kind of dedication to a server with such a low turnout.
Weapon restricted servers is also not something Smilegate has coded into the game. Though in a closed tournament setting I don't see how self imposed rules on weapon restrictions can't be implemented. You see the player using an illegal weapon, so report them to whomever is running the tournament.
Armor is an issue, as that stuff is invisible. However if people are playing on a league with an anti-cheat chances are it can help to keep track of this stuff. Ideally we could find a way to display armor somewhere so people would know. But that hasn't been on a priority level with the developers.
Putting those aside, the fundamental basics for running leagues are in the game. We are hoping that exposure on this level (from wcg) will encourage some league owners to step up and look to start some leagues.
From our perspective, we do not have the staff here to run a full time league at the moment. We are working right now on nailing down some of the things like the clan ladder so that we can use those for closed leagues. We want to increase the competition and that is going to mean finding more teams to play, so we can start by encouraging clans within the game to cross that line. It's no different than how any other competitive game does it, they have the public ladder that everyone competes on and then from there the best of the best are chosen for events/tournaments.
We are not Riot, who economists are estimating makes between 3-5 and up to 10 million dollars per day. They can afford to continue to hire staff so that they have one community manager for every X number of people. And they can hire infinite staff to keep developing web systems, and the user base is so large that sponsor companies and broadcast channels are jumping at the chance. We have a few people here, when one of our web guys goes on vacation to be with his family we all pray the website doesn't go down because there's not many other people to help fix it! (try to be realistic about your expectations)
The problem right now is in how the game calculates matches. A Clan Match is considered 2 separate games not two separate halves, from that it is actually quite difficult to create the rules surrounding fair play.
Also this ideal clan ladder is not going to enforce any rules for weapon restrictions etc, as noted from above. The ladder also has no way of enforcing (beyond our hack report system) hackers. Which can affect the outcome of the ladder.
But there are also social problems, even teams who compete here have hacked within our game, we know this 100%. They may not have hacked in such and such a tournament, but they have hacked the game. Those players also trade accounts, share information and generally use fake info for accounts so that when we do want to create some sort of "Anti-Cheat, invite only bracket tournament" it becomes very difficult for us to find the clans.
So what we have is this:
No 3rd party company who has stepped up to hold their own leagues.
No full public ladder system that is iron clad against farming and/or hacking.
A small selection of people we can get in touch with who are a part of the top teams within the game.
The rest of the people remain unknown and anonymous, and don't stick together in clans, make it difficult for us to find them (by constantly changing nicknames, emails, alternate accounts), and/or hacking the game and/or getting banned for being trolls etc.
We have the ability to run a tournament, even if it's small for some real world prizes.
We also have the ability to host LAN parties, and have real world prizes. But you have continually made it clear to us that unless the game is on client or away from the servers that no one wants to participate.
In the end, we have the connection to the competitive community through here and any other 3rd party league that wants to run it. But what we get out of that communication is a lot of threats and a lot of negativity.
So if it's possible to get past the trolling, and the hacking and the name calling, and the "we hate z8games" discussion. Let's come up with things that you guys want to see us do.
For a positive final, yes it's our goal to continue on this wave of momentum. It may not happen as quickly as next week, but we would like to continue to see it improve.
And we would like to have tournaments or leagues or some sort of events with more than just zp prizes. Obviously the competitive community is playing for more than just a few free weapons in Cross Fire. We're aware of that, though ZP in any given tournament can help build momentum for future events.
That's fairly lengthy of a post so I'll leave it at that and let the discussion continue.
im saying lets get iceman or someone to do the season long matches,scores,standings blah blah blah... then have like the 6 top teams for to a LAN that can be showcased and win X prize and stuff. It doesnt have to be as big as whoever wins goes to china paid -
The issue with tournaments is they are short lived. The reason esea is so successful is the constant busy aspect. There is always something to do. The competitive scene only shows its head when there is something at stake. To grow the scene from both a player standpoint and attract outside companies it has to be a constant influx of leagues/tournaments.
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First ever local lan in crossfire for only 5 teams brought so much hope into this competitive community and most importantly brought the competitive community closer together. All I'm gonna say for now.
to Z8: You guys should talk to different leagues about crossfire. -
Saidin i hope you know
Most of us are willing to pay league fees and such.. That money can be contributed to the prize pool..
Agree'd. Even if i was on a team that was unlikely to win, something reasonable (5-10, 5 is 25-50 a team. get 10 teams, 500 total. 250 first, 150 2nd, and 100 third. its not much but it gives a incentive. this for the league itself entrance fee, and prizes for purely online. Obviously a lan would not be plausible in this scenario from a profit stand point as it would cost more to travel), would still be worth the experience as a team. -
Saidin i hope you know
Most of us are willing to pay league fees and such.. That money can be contributed to the prize pool..
This is good to know, though to be honest, I think a league fee would also be used to legitimize the competition more.
IE, open signups has 250 teams and half of them drop due to inactivity in the first one.
With some sort of fee it would be at least only 125 teams! -
[GM]Saidin wrote: »This is good to know, though to be honest, I think a league fee would also be used to legitimize the competition more.
IE, open signups has 250 teams and half of them drop due to inactivity in the first one.
With some sort of fee it would be at least only 125 teams!
The issue with having such a large team pool is that 5% of the teams would be those hammertimes and lifelines and would roll everyone. You would have to carefully seed the brackets. -
The issue with having such a large team pool is that 5% of the teams would be those hammertimes and lifelines and would roll everyone. You would have to carefully seed the brackets.
noooooo you dont do it that way
you do like
Red division
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
Blue divison
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
Orange Division
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
you have inner divison game and different division games and 2 top of every division moves on....... blah blah ill explain deeper later -
The issue with having such a large team pool is that 5% of the teams would be those hammertimes and lifelines and would roll everyone. You would have to carefully seed the brackets.
Signups have to be public and then we would likely split in to divisions and have round robins at that point to determine who moves on and where to seed everyone to go into an elimination tournament.
The main problem here is the staffing to properly get the matches played on time.
Example, we could have the staff to do one match per week. Because of the amount of teams we would be talking about (regardless of the 5 teams that would always be at the top). We could easily be looking at 10-20 divisions with 10-20 teams.
From there, a first game would be played. Then all games would have to be played before we can update the roster. It's possible this could be done automatically, however every match would need to be reviewed for hacking.
Then we could move on to the next round.
10 rounds in a division at 10 weeks, plus a playoff bracket and the likelyhood of the tournament finishing in 2013 would be slim to none.
But I don't want to sound negative on that. There are ways to increase that efficiency. But any "player reliant' decision comes with a healthy amount of drama that needs to be sifted through in order to come up with the right way to proceed. -
StanishBeast wrote: »noooooo you dont do it that way
you do like
Red division
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
Blue divison
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
Orange Division
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
you have inner divison game and different division games and 2 top of every division moves on....... blah blah ill explain deeper later
That still leaves the issue of unbalance. For example, sc2 has grand masters/masters/etc. IF you took the top 2 from all the levels, the grand masters would still dominate. Thats why, in my opinion a league would work better than elimination. Teams would have more than two-three matches. It would be based upon wins/losses. Possibly a league as a qualifier for a smaller elimination tournament -
This is a good thread. Too bad nothing is going to come of it. I'm going to say this one will almost hit 13 pages. Saiden is going to give up around page 3 or 4 and then the proles will just be gabbing to themselves saying stuff that isn't important or stuff that has only been said over 10000 times.
Good luck to the participants in this post. May you not be continually frustrated by everything. Good day.
______Quack -
That still leaves the issue of unbalance. For example, sc2 has grand masters/masters/etc. IF you took the top 2 from all the levels, the grand masters would still dominate. Thats why, in my opinion a league would work better than elimination. Teams would have more than two-three matches. It would be based upon wins/losses. Possibly a league as a qualifier for a smaller elimination tournament
ya thats what this is. You dont just play your division you play all divisions. Kinda like fantasy sports online -
[GM]Saidin wrote: »But you have continually made it clear to us that unless the game is on client or away from the servers that no one wants to participate.
When you, or any of the mods say stuff like that it makes me feel like you guys are generalizing the community. Just because you have a select few trolling / hate flaming it doesn't mean the rest of us feel the same way.
I for one am a pubstar and I'm proud of that. But, it doesn't mean I'm not competitive either. -
That still leaves the issue of unbalance. For example, sc2 has grand masters/masters/etc. IF you took the top 2 from all the levels, the grand masters would still dominate. Thats why, in my opinion a league would work better than elimination. Teams would have more than two-three matches. It would be based upon wins/losses. Possibly a league as a qualifier for a smaller elimination tournament
For the ease of setup, it would likely just be randomly divided into divisions.
So going on what Stanish has said about that, and what you say here. Take all the teams who have signed up and then draw numbers out of a hat to put them into divisions.
The divisions is the league, it's just a more efficient way to run it. So lets say we have 100 teams in a league. Hypothetically that means everyone should play everyone at least once which is 100 games, which could be 100 weeks (2 years) at 1 game a week.
If we split it by division, then everyone plays within a division for say. 5 weeks, or 6 weeks (2 months) and then we take all the top people from each division and put them in a tournament.
We could seed people by "goal" differential. The better you win, the higher your seed is. We could break ties with a ton of different game stats that are tracked within the matches. -
[GM]Saidin wrote: »This is good to know, though to be honest, I think a league fee would also be used to legitimize the competition more.
IE, open signups has 250 teams and half of them drop due to inactivity in the first one.
With some sort of fee it would be at least only 125 teams!
There. wont be anywhere near 125 teams.
Honestly i would just have 2 divisions like wogl did.
Open has to pay around 5 dollars per player
Pro somewhere around 15-30
What you at z8 could do, is have the league free in a ZP form like you did with wogl.
That could also make people know they aren't getting scammed by someone whos just making a league, to get money out of them by just not running the league after they pay. -
There. wont be anywhere near 125 teams.
Honestly i would just have 2 divisions like wogl did.
Open has to pay around 5 dollars per player
Pro somewhere around 15-30
What you at z8 could do, is have the league free in a ZP form like you did with wogl.
That could also make people know they aren't getting scammed by someone whos just making a league, to get money out of them by just not running the league after they pay.
I believe he wants to make the league in the clan server.. Therefore including a huge amount of brs/asians.
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