[DISCUSSION]What is justified?
Comments
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Leagues can do whatever they want. You don't need justification for anything. It's your service you decide who gets to play and who doesn't. If you don't want people with any type of hacks involved in your league, you can punish all violations. Sorry Polleus, but you are clearly missing the point. Especially considering you answered your own question in the post.
I never said they couldn't do anything they wanted, I said that there are lines that shouldn't be crossed and that is my opinion. That's all. I never said that they weren't allowed, I was pointing out that there are some things that shouldn't be done. I believe that what you do on your own time is none of an organization's business.
Unless you are caught in that supported game real-time and in-game with cheats used specifically for that game, you weren't really caught cheating were you? You were simply caught with an injector on your computer. Does that justify a ban? That's obviously up to the organization and left to a matter of judgement, I certainly agree. -
Leagues can do whatever they want. You don't need justification for anything. It's your service you decide who gets to play and who doesn't. If you don't want people with any type of hacks involved in your league, you can punish all violations. Sorry Polleus, but you are clearly missing the point. Especially considering you answered your own question in the post.
If you want to hack in maple story, and you are using a detectable injector. Expect that you could be banned from a league. You decided you wanted to cheat on your own time.
Everyone knew the rules since before Season 1. The fact that people ignored them to me says they don't need to be playing leagues.
Rules are in place to make it both easier for the organization and the users who decide to play with that league / organization. For gaming, hacking would be the main concern and if no severe action is taken for the most severe rule you can break, then to me I think people have the right to justify what punishment is made. -
For gaming, hacking would be the main concern and if no severe action is taken for the most severe rule you can break, then to me I think people have the right to justify what punishment is made.
It's pretty straight forward.
If you have generic memory editors, injectors, or crossfire specific hacks you will be banned. -
[MOD]Polleus wrote: »I never said they couldn't do anything they wanted, I said that there are lines that shouldn't be crossed and that is my opinion. That's all. I never said that they weren't allowed, I was pointing out that there are some things that shouldn't be done. I believe that what you do on your own time is none of an organization's business.
Unless you are caught in that supported game real-time and in-game with cheats used specifically for that game, you weren't really caught cheating were you? You were simply caught with an injector on your computer. Does that justify a ban? That's obviously up to the organization and left to a matter of judgement, I certainly agree.
With the serious hacking problem in crossfire, and other free 2 play games I think that is fair.
You defending people who have memory editors and injectors is comical. Can't wait for your league to get released so you can learn a lesson about gaming. -
It's pretty straight forward.
If you have generic memory editors, injectors, or crossfire specific hacks you will be banned.
it wasn't very clear when wogl client came out tbh so a lot of people ended up getting banned after the first pug. some people couldn't even get on to play the first pug lol -
Ya'll are idiots, the injectors that people were getting banned for were most often dual purpose. They can inject into a multitude of games. What was being injected was game specific.
Again, it can be viewed multiple ways:
TECHNICALLY, an injector even multi-purpose, does NOT prove someone was cheating in Cross Fire. Unless they were CAUGHT using that injector while in-game, they weren't really "cheating".
Merriam-Webster definition of cheating:
intransitive verb
1
a : to practice fraud or trickery
b : to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test>
An injector on your computer does not prove the "practice" of cheating, it proves the "intent". Whether or not that is an offense warranting a permanent ban is arguable and left to the judgement of the organization.
HOWEVER:
Technology permitting, if you don't have a cheat security that can prove a real-time cheater, while in-game, you're kind of limited in what you can or can't allow. So both sides can be argued in this case. -
Thank you for that wonderful bit of information. Because of you, everyone who now reads your post will be instantaneously enlightened by your words of wisdom. We're all leaving here a bit smarter...Ya'll are idiots, the injectors that people were getting banned for were most often dual purpose. They can inject into a multitude of games. What was being injected was game specific. -
Ya'll are idiots, the injectors that people were getting banned for were most often dual purpose. They can inject into a multitude of games. What was being injected was game specific.
GUNS R USED KILL PEOPLE, WHY DEH LEGAL?
p.s. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC03hmS1Brk -
[MOD]Polleus wrote: »Again, it can be viewed multiple ways:
TECHNICALLY, an injector even multi-purpose, does NOT prove someone was cheating in Cross Fire. Unless they were CAUGHT using that injector while in-game, they weren't really "cheating".
Merriam-Webster definition of cheating:
intransitive verb
1
a : to practice fraud or trickery
b : to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test>
An injector on your computer does not prove the "practice" of cheating, it proves the "intent". Whether or not that is an offense warranting a permanent ban is arguable and left to the judgement of the organization.
HOWEVER:
Technology permitting, if you don't have a cheat security that can prove a real-time cheater, while in-game, you're kind of limited in what you can or can't allow. So both sides can be argued in this case.
You're still an idiot. In the rules it said you weren't allowed to posses injectors, memory editors, and cf specific hacks. Therefore the rules were violated. You are arguing my point.
If I get pulled over and the cop smells liquor on my breathe, there is no proof I had been drinking.
If you have hack injectors on your computer you broke WOGL's rules. ESL can do what they want, and SUaF can do what they want. This isn't the first time leagues have had different stances on cheating.
Quit trying to homogenize everything. -
You're still an idiot. In the rules it said you weren't allowed to posses injectors, memory editors, and cf specific hacks. Therefore the rules were violated. You are arguing my point.
If I get pulled over and the cop smells liquor on my breathe, there is no proof I had been drinking.
If you have hack injectors on your computer you broke WOGL's rules. ESL can do what they want, and SUaF can do what they want. This isn't the first time leagues have had different stances on cheating.
Quit trying to homogenize everything.
One, don't insult me again. Providing an opinion on a GENERAL subject of cheating is the only thing I was doing. I did not say EVER that I was talking about WOGL's rules. AGAIN, I said it was up to the organization to determine what they should or shouldn't allow. I was AGREEING with you and just providing another point of discussion.[MOD]Polleus wrote: »Again, it can be viewed multiple ways:
TECHNICALLY, an injector even multi-purpose, does NOT prove someone was cheating in Cross Fire. Unless they were CAUGHT using that injector while in-game, they weren't really "cheating".
Merriam-Webster definition of cheating:
intransitive verb
1
a : to practice fraud or trickery
b : to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test>
An injector on your computer does not prove the "practice" of cheating, it proves the "intent". Whether or not that is an offense warranting a permanent ban is arguable and left to the judgement of the organization.
HOWEVER:
Technology permitting, if you don't have a cheat security that can prove a real-time cheater, while in-game, you're kind of limited in what you can or can't allow. So both sides can be argued in this case.
Point out to me where in there I addressed WOGL specifically? This was meant in a GENERAL situation. Humble yourself a bit please. Don't attack someone for no reason. You may be able to talk to other people like that, but I don't back down like a little puppy. Want me to cut the chat and infract you for insulting Z8 Staff? Stop making yourself look bad. -
[MOD]Polleus wrote: »One, don't insult me again. Providing an opinion on a GENERAL subject of cheating is the only thing I was doing. I did not say EVER that I was talking about WOGL's rules. AGAIN, I said it was up to the organization to determine what they should or shouldn't allow. I was AGREEING with you and just providing another point of discussion.
Point out to me where in there I addressed WOGL specifically? This was meant in a GENERAL situation. Humble yourself a bit please. Don't attack someone for no reason. You may be able to talk to other people like that, but I don't back down like a little puppy. Want me to cut the chat and infract you for insulting Z8 Staff? Stop making yourself look bad.
go ahead, infract me. oh no a chat infraction. i want nothing to do with you, or suaf if your gonna let people who have injectors and memory editors play. why don't you make kc_ a league admin while you are at it.
There are 2 leagues right now ESL and WOGL. You're an ex ESL admin. ESL doesn't ban for possession of hacking tools, wogl does. Oh my goodness, it's the debate in this thread. Funny how that works.
I am addressing wogl specifically, by you addressing my argument you are addressing wogl. Welcome to english 101. I like that wogl has a zero tolerance stance towards cheating. If you want people who have hack tools to play in your league ago ahead. Don't try to affect other leagues.
I'll call you an idiot all day, go ahead and infract me. Hell you can even ban me from the forums, and I wouldn't care. The fact that you think hacking tools should even be remotely acceptable for "competitive players" to have in my opinion makes you an idiot.
I could give you my opinion over xfire, but nothing would change. I am attacking you, because this is down right ******ed that a prominent figure thinks cheating is acceptable. -
Again, I addressed you and specifically said in a general sense:[MOD]Polleus wrote: »Again, it can be viewed multiple ways:
TECHNICALLY, an injector even multi-purpose, does NOT prove someone was cheating in Cross Fire. Unless they were CAUGHT using that injector while in-game, they weren't really "cheating".
Merriam-Webster definition of cheating:
intransitive verb
1
a : to practice fraud or trickery
b : to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test>
An injector on your computer does not prove the "practice" of cheating, it proves the "intent". Whether or not that is an offense warranting a permanent ban is arguable and left to the judgement of the organization.
HOWEVER:
Technology permitting, if you don't have a cheat security that can prove a real-time cheater, while in-game, you're kind of limited in what you can or can't allow. So both sides can be argued in this case.
Read the red words. Learn to read before posting. I specifically addressed that I was NOT addressing any one organization. I never said cheating was acceptable. Not once. I was simply providing the discussion point that we should look at whether or not it is justified to ban someone for having cheats for a completely unrelated game on their computer.
I'm not trying to affect any league. I simply opened the topic up for discussion. You sir, are mistaken for thinking I have other motives. Not everyone has side motives. Take a step back and actually think that I MIGHT just have wanted a discussion. You really need an attitude adjustment. What happened to you?[MOD]Polleus wrote: »Please don't interpret this as a direct or non-direct stab at any one organization. I am just curious as to what the competitive community thinks when it comes to bans from a League or Organization.
The first words on this thread. I specifically stated this was NOT addressing any one league or organization. Again, it's no skin off my back. You're just making yourself look bad. This is a GENERAL discussion. -
Justification is solely the responsibility of the people providing the services. If you don't like their rules, don't sign up.
Even almighty ESEA bans people with little to no reason from time to time. You don't have a right to play in any league, it is a privilege. -
Justification is solely the responsibility of the people providing the services. If you don't like their rules, don't sign up.
Even almighty ESEA bans people with little to no reason from time to time. You don't have a right to play in any league, it is a privilege.
I AGREE with you. I never said I didn't agree. I was just providing other points of discussion in a GENERAL sense for the thread. The responsibility and the decision is up to the organization itself. Completely agree. I never said it was addressed to WOGL or ESL or anyone for that matter.
How many beers have you had tonight? Lol. So angry. -
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posting on the forums is also a privilege and since doop has nothing of importance to mention he should have been banned as soon as he insulted you. if it were anyone else they would have already been banned.
start discussion about mod power abuse!
Let's not. For starters, one insult is a point infraction not a ban. Secondly, if I can defuse a situation WITHOUT infracting someone, I would rather do so. Doop and I go back and forth in these threads all the time. Being a hard head is not always the best way to go in my position. I'm not abusing any power. No power was exercised. Now that we have that resolved, back on topic. -
[MOD]Polleus wrote: »For one, you are using a real life example in which does not apply for this case. Murder =/= using a cheat in a video game. Two totally different situations.
Why do we as an organization say for Cross Fire have a right to tell someone who has used cheats in Runescape or Maplestory that they can't play in our Cross Fire events? Cross Fire =/= Runescape or Maplestory. Cross Fire =/= Anything but Cross Fire. As a private organization, we have rule over those who play in OUR events and OUR supported titles. Period. Anything outside of that and what you do on your own time, is your own business. Period. That's how it should be.
That's like ESEA telling people who have used cheats in Cross Fire that they can't play on ESEA servers because they've been found to cheat in Cross Fire. What does ESEA care? That's not their business.
Pretty sure ESEA agreed to that with steam. You can't play the game itself if you hacked on any of the other games that steam hosts. Indirectly of course, but that in itself boosts the legitimacy of the league AND the game.
But murder and cheating both have something in common. They are both crimes and violations against the community.
Doop already cleared up pretty much everything I was going to say so I have pretty much nothing more.
And I end with this:
"What can you do, thought Winston, against the lunatic who is more intelligent than yourself, who gives your arguments a fair hearing and then simply persists in his lunacy?" -Orwell -
fr0dsSister wrote: »Mods should just stick to the clan server/pub scene, suggesting non perm bans for HACK tools is just ridiculous, even Z8games doesn't offer second chances, you're telling me a league should be more lenient than a game portal? LOL
Z8Games bans you for CROSS FIRE cheats, not unrelated files/cheats that are from another game. Multi-purpose injectors, I can see the point there, as they can be used in CF.
I simply offered up options for conversation. I suggested that people analyze what CAN or COULD be done. Both sides can be argued.
1) Zero Tolerance: Cheats are cheats. You have any cheat related programs or files are a violation.
2) Software limitation: If a program can decipher whether or not the program is being USED. An injector sitting on your computer is different from an injector being USED while you are playing.
Both points of view can be argued, agreed to and disagreed to. Again, what I said before, the decision is left to the organization. Hence why I started the topic. It can be openly discussed with multiple points of view. -
By allowing number 2, you are allowing cheaters to roam.
No game host likes hackers, and no leagues like hackers as well. If every game host and league agrees with number 1, then the number of hackers will decrease dramatically because not only do you risk not being able to play on the games you may not care about, but also the games you will be serious about. -
Well, as it's a competition, and there are prizes, cheaters, regardless of the severity of the hack, should be perma banned immediately. That's why athletes, are banned from ever competing if they are caught cheating.
You might say that would lessen the amount of people competing. However, do you really want people with no moral sense to play? Almost every single player here understands the severity of hacks, and in a gaming league? A hack is almost despicable, the player, no, the person should be banned from all gaming competitions in the future.
The fact you even downloaded a hack makes you untrustworthy. -
KryxisAlpha wrote: »Well, as it's a competition, and there are prizes, cheaters, regardless of the severity of the hack, should be perma banned immediately. That's why athletes, are banned from ever competing if they are caught cheating.
You might say that would lessen the amount of people competing. However, do you really want people with no moral sense to play? Almost every single player here understands the severity of hacks, and in a gaming league? A hack is almost despicable, the player, no, the person should be banned from all gaming competitions in the future.
The fact you even downloaded a hack makes you untrustworthy.
QFT
but what can you say to Polleus?
He will continue saying the same thing: Its not in their jurisdiction. -
KryxisAlpha wrote: »Well, as it's a competition, and there are prizes, cheaters, regardless of the severity of the hack, should be perma banned immediately. That's why athletes, are banned from ever competing if they are caught cheating.
You might say that would lessen the amount of people competing. However, do you really want people with no moral sense to play? Almost every single player here understands the severity of hacks, and in a gaming league? A hack is almost despicable, the player, no, the person should be banned from all gaming competitions in the future.
The fact you even downloaded a hack makes you untrustworthy.
Don't even TRY to argue morals in this. Morals have nothing to do with this.
The only question should be the likelyhood of someone hacking CF (IN WHATEVER LEAGUE THIS POLICY IS BEING APPLIED TO) based solely on the fact that they HAVE hacked in other games before.
"do you really want people with no moral sense to play?"
I'd be interested in your views, if you have any, on popular TV show Survivor -
Don't even TRY to argue morals in this. Morals have nothing to do with this.
The only question should be the likelyhood of someone hacking CF (IN WHATEVER LEAGUE THIS POLICY IS BEING APPLIED TO) based solely on the fact that they HAVE hacked in other games before.
"do you really want people with no moral sense to play?"
I'd be interested in your views, if you have any, on popular TV show Survivor
(I have no idea what that TV show is, I don't watch TV. Parents hog it)
Well, you can pretty much gather if they hacked in other games, (AVA, CS:S, CA), they would probably hack in this game since...there are hacks. Even if they don't hack in this game, they not entirely trust worthy. Although this view is strict, think about the immediate decrease in would-be hakers applying. Would a hardcore player, who's even joining in a tournament, not some crummy scrim, ever download a hack?
Even if the hack was on a very "dead" game that only hacking causes fun (MW2 post BO release), I would not consider them trustworthy.
I would also consider them to be a little idiotic, since if this was implemented (hack=good bye for ever rule) then why would they download it?
Also, a hack has the same effect as those called noob weapons- you use it too much, you find yourself sucky without them. And then, that arises the question- Why are you in a hardcore tournament anyways? -
KryxisAlpha wrote: »(I have no idea what that TV show is, I don't watch TV. Parents hog it)
(I don't have cable or sat; oh the wonders of the net :P)
Well, you can pretty much gather if they hacked in other games, (AVA, CS:S, CA (There are other games besides FPS games. Some of these games are played online, but can mostly be a single player experience.)), they would probably hack in this game since...there are hacks. (Based on what? As I said in a previous post, I've known multiple people who have played CF competitively, and have hacked other games or even this one. Why did I have no issue with this? Because they did it in private rooms to speed hack around because they thought it was hilarious. Just because someone finds it fun to break the game limits doesn't mean that they can't respect and understand the difference between that and a competitive environment.) Even if they don't hack in this game, they not entirely trust worthy. Although this view is strict, think about the immediate decrease in would-be hakers applying. Would a hardcore player, who's even joining in a tournament, not some crummy scrim, ever download a hack? (Yes, as I said, hacking some random game to see how much funny stuff can be done is not the same as hacking the game to gain a serious competitive advantage.)
Even if the hack was on a very "dead" game that only hacking causes fun (MW2 post BO release), I would not consider them trustworthy.
I would also consider them to be a little idiotic, since if this was implemented (hack=good bye for ever rule) then why would they download it? (People existed before CF. So did other games xD)
Also, a hack has the same effect as those called noob weapons- you use it too much, you find yourself sucky without them. And then, that arises the question- Why are you in a hardcore tournament anyways? (Not true if you apply it to my argument for people who don't hack to win.)
I'm in blue.
![[MOD]Polleus](https://forum.z8games.com/uploads/customavatars/7/navatar_8918107.gif){kind=avatar}
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