[DISCUSSION]What is justified?
![[MOD]Polleus](https://forum.z8games.com/uploads/customavatars/7/navatar_8918107.gif){kind=avatar}
Please don't interpret this as a direct or non-direct stab at any one organization. I am just curious as to what the competitive community thinks when it comes to bans from a League or Organization.
When a player is detected of using cheats should it be a hard-line, no mercy permanent ban? Why or why not? Is it justified to ban someone permanently given the circumstances how quickly the gaming world changes over time? How about a 2 strikes and you're out policy? On first detection you receive a 1 year ban and then on a second detection you are banned permanently?
Please don't comment that you would rather no permanent bans on the basis that you would all like a second chance if you were banned. Please base your judgements off of what would be fair and justified. If you think once a cheater, always a cheat and prefer a one-time permanent ban, please say so. As always, keep the thread clean. This is a sensitive subject and as you all know could get out of hand very quickly. Thanks everyone. Discuss away.
When a player is detected of using cheats should it be a hard-line, no mercy permanent ban? Why or why not? Is it justified to ban someone permanently given the circumstances how quickly the gaming world changes over time? How about a 2 strikes and you're out policy? On first detection you receive a 1 year ban and then on a second detection you are banned permanently?
Please don't comment that you would rather no permanent bans on the basis that you would all like a second chance if you were banned. Please base your judgements off of what would be fair and justified. If you think once a cheater, always a cheat and prefer a one-time permanent ban, please say so. As always, keep the thread clean. This is a sensitive subject and as you all know could get out of hand very quickly. Thanks everyone. Discuss away.
Comments
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Well, regarding WOGL, I once suggested that the players that have being banned for Non-CrossFire hacks should get a second chance and be unbanned. This will raise the number of players, bring back old teams and sounds fair to me. If they actually want to play competitive they will reformat so they won't get banned for a cheat for a different game. If you are banned for a CrossFire cheat you get what you deserve. But my point is how many players have being banned without even actually cheating in WOGL?
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Given that it is incredibly easy to acquire cheats and bypass x-trap along with the other league anti cheats, I say give the cheaters 1-2 chances. If they continue to get caught after that it's their fault. I don't see why having cheats for any other game would even be mentioned.
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Well, regarding WOGL, I once suggested that the players that have being banned for Non-CrossFire hacks should get a second chance and be unbanned. This will raise the number of players, bring back old teams and sounds fair to me. If they actually want to play competitive they will reformat so they won't get banned for a cheat for a different game. If you are banned for a CrossFire cheat you get what you deserve. But my point is how many players have being banned without even actually cheating in WOGL?
I can't dissagree. I think its pretty bs that there are some guys that we all know cheat/ have cheated/ admitted to bypassing in tournaments, then some guys have been banned for Runescape Bots/ War Rock cheats/ CA cheats w/e. I think you should be banned from the game you cheated in, but I dunno whether pernamently or for a lengthy time. Like some people I know do cheat in pubs on alt's quite a lot, but they dont cheat in matches. I'd like these guys, if they were caught, to have their year banned but then to be allowed back for 1 chance. But then there's guys who've been cheating always and obviously, I'd like them perma banned.
Anyway, I think Wogl Bans should have nothing to do with WCG qualifiers tbh. They're separate to Wogl's own league and they should have a chance of going to Korea aswell. -
Permaban for CF related cheats. Nothing for other games unless they are being currently played in the league, in which case a temporary suspension or warning is adequate.
People getting banned for single player games injectors is just bad as CF hackers not being permabanned.
If someone is found using CF cheats, I don't want to have to worry about them being able to play again. Any measures that assures cheaters will stay away are good. -
this thread has barbeque SAUCE all over it. no but for real... it's a weird topic because some people get banned even if they have never touched a cheat in CF. Others get banned for trying out cheats in the past and are determined to play without them nowadays. For those types of people I believe a second chance should be provided but of course it could just be abused.
PS: there are a few who have been banned from wogl and still play it right now so... -
PS: there are a few who have been banned from wogl and still play it right now so...
Indeed.................until the AC's improve a lot, talking about ban's is pretty useless >.>
PPS: Oh, why would you care MyAwm. I thought you didnt play leagues. -
Season ban or warning for non-Crossfire cheats
Permanent for Crossfire cheats.
Exactly, on regards to what Polleus said, not just for using cheats and having them overall should result in a ban, mainly because what idiot would have cheats and not use them? Have cheats = ip ban, it should be that simple. -
Well, regarding WOGL, I once suggested that the players that have being banned for Non-CrossFire hacks should get a second chance and be unbanned.
When I was with WOGL we did in fact go through EVERY SINGLE BAN and discuss them, if we felt they needed to be discussed; Notable discussions I raised that needed to be discussed but were not considered and or open for discussion: Sauce & aL. In the first run 'overturns' 0 Cross Fire Players were overturned.Anyway, I think Wogl Bans should have nothing to do with WCG qualifiers tbh. They're separate to Wogl's own league and they should have a chance of going to Korea aswell.
This is a double edged sword. I believe strongly the people whom have been banned on WOGL should be able to participate in the qualifiers. This was a topic that was brought up with ESSA running the qualifiers + the ESEA client being ran in the qualifiers for Counter-Strike. Case: Those banned on the ESEA client and registered on in the qualifiers WERE ALLOWED and their bans were temporary removed with notes logged on their account for ban placing upon a certain date.
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Now lets get into the juice...shall we? From day one, I NEVER believed in the entire system in which ANY league. Let's be honest, NO LEAGUE AC STAFF MEMBER is really investigating the logs; Reviewing hashes, screen shots, etc.. And/or QUALIFIED to be an AC staffer in the current leagues. ESL barely has a team, and neither does WOGL. When I was with WOGL there was only three people with access and all they ever did was review hash logs. So when you wanted your reports investigated, you were ALWAYS undercut. Your lucky if you were actually reviewed. If you sent in a replay I would review it top to bottom, aside from the actual AC files, but due to the level of 'skill' now in masking the ability to hack...it's EXTREMELY difficult, therefore you would have to go back to an AC log...And since the AC was bypassed what good was the AC log?
NONE of the AC's are actually equipped to monitor this community. I won't go into the means in which to bypass the AC's out now, but we're not talking science in going around all of that; Especially since neither AC monitors key combinations, or inactive response [I know this how? I've not just WATCHED people bypass the current AC's, but I know a list of 20 people that actively bypass ESL & WOGL AC's]. The WHOLE ban system is corrupt and will NEVER be fair to all. Let's be honest, when they're unmanned/unmonitored, banning people who never participate, bypassed, it's all one big joke and the structure of the system is weak.
What do I feel should be done?- PROPERLY MONITORED
- Staffed PROPERLY
- INVESTIGATED THOROUGHLY/PROPERLY
- Non Title Bans: Noted, Logged & Monitored, despite being a hosted game, but NOT banned unless directly affecting the event they're participating in
- PROOF of being used IN-GAME, apposed to immediate ban for having stray fragments of files from 2009 in 2011; Some players are inexperienced in cleaning their computer...Penalize them?
- Rule with EXPERIENCE, KNOWLEDGE and OPEN-MIND to listen and take in EVERY angle of the case
That's just my two cents...I hope I addressed what was being asked by the person(s) who told me to come and touch down. I'm sure my Xfifre & Skype will light up at some point for releasing information that's not really known...but I don't give a sh%t at this point. Run your god d%mn jobs properly/professionally and these crumbs are non existent.
Enjoy the remainder of your summer and stay focused in school, Cross Fire is NOT your future. -
I honestly don't believe in a single word from what I just quoted. To be all honest and respectful Bobby, I think you're just trying to wind us up a little.[I know this how? I've not just WATCHED people bypass the current AC's, but I know a list of 20 people that actively bypass ESL & WOGL AC's]. The WHOLE ban system is corrupt and will NEVER be fair to all. Let's be honest, when they're unmanned/unmonitored, banning people who never participate, bypassed, it's all one big joke and the structure of the system is weak. -
'sG wrote:golani;2452957']I honestly don't believe in a single word from what I just quoted. To be all honest and respectful Bobby, I think you're just trying to wind us up a little.
Your entitled to disagreeing...you'd surprised though, EXTREMELY surprised... -
NOTE: This is my view. If you don't like it, I don't care. If you disagree with me, I don't care.
What I believe it comes down to is the people behind the anti-cheats. Most small gaming organizations don't have the funds to hire a company or a talented individual to design them an anti-cheat from the ground up. What most of them resort to is using a generic source code to create their anti-cheat. This creates problems as this type of anti-cheat can be used for a wide variety of purposes/games, hence why its detects programs for a wide variety of purposes/games. Take VAC for example, a purpose-built anti-cheat. It's purpose is to detect cheats/hacks for valve games, nothing else. This is why VAC is one of the most effective anti-cheat programs ever created. Obviously it has its flaws as with all anti-cheats, but they're clearly fewer and far between when compared to others. That is what money gets you, a solid anti-cheat. The people who use these generic anti-cheats are most likely clueless individuals who are unable to differentiate between a cheat for their game and a program/cheat in general, as the anti-cheat itself does. This leads to automatic bans. The leaders of these gaming organizations need to realize this and make adjustments accordingly. That's probably too much to ask though when many of them are still enrolled in a public education system.
This is just a theory, though. -
Touching on Bobby's post and others as well:
Until a 3rd party program comes out that is a REAL anti-cheat, this issue will always persist. What I mean by that is, a counter-cheat scans a computer for known files and programs but does not stop those files/programs in real-time. Real-time cheating should be the ONLY grounds of a permanent ban. If you are caught in-game, cheating during a sanctioned league match then you deserve every bit of a permanent ban. Just my two cents. -
i've not just watched people bypass the current ac's, but i know a list of 20 people that actively bypass esl & wogl ac's]. The whole ban system is corrupt and will never be fair to all. Let's be honest, when they're unmanned/unmonitored, banning people who never participate, bypassed, it's all one big joke and the structure of the system is weak.
Come on Bobby!
Release the kraken. -
Just because somebody hacks in a DIFFERENT game, it doesn't change the fact that they hack. If the player gets a 1 year ban through a league or organization universally, it will give others wake up calls. Hacking in general is the same in most FPS games and to me it makes sense to ban any hacker who gets caught.
2 Strikes and your out.
1st: Season Ban
2nd: Permanent Ban -
Season ban or warning for non-Crossfire cheats
Permanent for Crossfire cheats.Just because somebody hacks in a DIFFERENT game, it doesn't change the fact that they hack. If the player gets a 1 year ban through a league or organization universally, it will give others wake up calls. Hacking in general is the same in most FPS games and to me it makes sense to ban any hacker who gets caught.
2 Strikes and your out.
1st: Season Ban
2nd: Permanent Ban
While you have a point that hacking is indeed bad, why should an organization have ANY jurisdiction outside of one of their supported titles? If an organization were to support only Cross Fire, why would it even matter if they have Runescape cheats or Maplestory cheats? How would the organization have ANY authority to ban them for "hacking" when in fact they weren't really cheating?
Again, my point still stands. Until an organization comes out with a real-time anti-cheat to prove REAL-TIME cheating, this issue will always be the case and thus an organization should only enforce ban penalties if the cheats found were for that supported title. -
Thank you for that insightful point. I could tell the rest of your post was going downhill from here.Just because somebody hacks in a DIFFERENT game, it doesn't change the fact that they hack.
I couldn't agree more. By "wake up calls" I assume your referring to people finally realizing what a joke the anti-cheat and banning policy is.If the player gets a 1 year ban through a league or organization universally, it will give others wake up calls.
You're right, people who get caught hacking IN-GAME do deserved to be banned, we've established that point already, detective. What we're currently discussing is whether or not people deserved to be banned for cheats not relating to the game they're competing competitively in. Care to share your thoughts?Hacking in general is the same in most FPS games and to me it makes sense to ban any hacker who gets caught. -
Indeed.................until the AC's improve a lot, talking about ban's is pretty useless >.>
PPS: Oh, why would you care MyAwm. I thought you didnt play leagues.
i've played in 2 matches and did well. I also pugged back when wogl came out. matches are basically scrims so i don't see what's the big commotion.
PPS: Oh, why would you care Rust. Aren't you like the worst euro in this game?
The funny thing is i don't even know you, yet you recently have this animosity towards me. Unless of course you were one of the sh1tties I ripped in several eu pugs under a different name back in the day and all of a sudden you're ready to take me on while i don't play the game. you're one tough cookie -
Perm ban for any of these things.
Thats just ludacris that this is even being considered. People should already know the rules and know that if they hack in another game or even hack in that game, that they will probably not be able to play in leagues. Just as US citizens or anyone of that matter within the USA is subject to the laws of the federal government so should these players in reference to the league admin. If anyone were to use ignorance as an excuse for a crime, the judge would shut it down as a sad excuse of justification. The same should be applied here; that is, if the league is credible.
Anyone that has an injector is someone that intends to hack in the first place. Why else would they have had it downloaded? This is the near equivalent of telling my parents that I downloaded po.rnography, and that I didn't watch it, and don't intend to. What kind of ilogical agreement would it be if parents did nothing? Idk, but if thats the case, there is some bizarre agreement going down.
No warnings. No second chances.
Hackers (Not even real hackers, just kids who use somone else's hard work to dominate in a petty videogame) should be treated like sex offenders. Shun and humiliate them.
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