Professionalism in Competitive Cross Fire

[MOD]Polleus

I have sat by and watched teams compete with one another for quite some time. While I have not personally competed in these events, I have gained quite a perspective as an outsider looking in on the lack of Professionalism in our community. While this does not apply to all teams, this does apply to many of them.

So, I ask the question, why is there such a lack of Professionalism within our community of competition? Is it the lack of enforcement from the Gaming Organization to instill those ideals in teams that participate in their events? Is it the age of the community that's causing it? Is this simply how eSports has been, is, and always will be?

I understand that eSports will always have trash talking. That's inevitable between two or more teams competing for a prize or title. Rivalries will always grow between teams and players alike. That's very understandable, that's sports in general. However, is there not a line where that becomes unnecessary? Is there not a line where a player or team leader simply crosses to where they make their entire team look unprofessional? Does "image" mean anything to you as players? As teams? It seems the majority of you will not hesitate to publicly jump on someone for missing a shot, or performing bad in a game, or any number of reasons. Is it really necessary?

What happened to wishing your opponent luck, playing out the game, and then wishing the winner a good game or showing humility towards a team that you beat? When did human standards go out the window for a lot of you? I understand teams want to win, but is it completely necessary to forget about the ideal of professionalism?

• Example: Team A sees that a player on Team B is using a flash guard in the early rounds of the game. Team A decides not to notify the opposing team in order to be able to dispute the game in the event Team A loses. A lot you will say, that's part of the game and part of winning. I say, that's nonsense and you should have the decency and want to play on a fair ground. How can the sanctity of eSports be upheld when so many players fail to follow a simple set of ideals that uphold maturity and professionalism?

I want to hear from absolutely everyone. Those who agree with me and those who don't. I want to see where the disconnect is and if it can be fixed or if this is simply how it's always going to be. Can the ideal of professionalism be taught to our competitive community or is it simply not worth trying? Can anything be done?

Discuss.

Falloutt

yeah seriously no more tbagging...




but really no one really shows respect to anyone, it's normal because it's over the internet, you can talk sh1t without any consequences. People some how think they are bad ass when very little was accomplished. Apparently manners are void on the internet.

ImJDog

Also I feel that most teams forget that it's a learning experience.

We were total newbies at this a few months ago... now we're playing teams that we would get ONE round on earlier this year.

As RaLf said to us, "always remember your going to improve". (not an exact quote but close...)

ImJDog

Hey polleus, Z8 should *Host competitive pugs.

It'll be fun and if Z8 is hosting them the rest of the community will at least hear about pugs.

It's just a suggestion.

appliedlogic

There will always be flaws where ever you go
Your idealism is good to read and uplifting in a sense but other than that the reality of what is,is still here and going on.

Onto the topic and giving actual input:

Age does play a roll in allot of this
But what plays a bigger factor is maturity
And a numerous amount of players that go about ''trolling''

As for wishing the winner a good game

It is perfectly within the human nature to not wish the winner a good game
example:Human A is in a Fight with Human B
Human B knocks the **** out of Human A
Human A see's Human B in the food store
Human A ''Good fight last night Human B you really have a great arm!''

Hi_QQ

The age of the community isn't a factor, there is no imaginary line you'd be crossing by constant trash talking. It's a part of eSports and sports in general, competition grows by shit talking imo. If you're the type that gets offended by text over a game theres a block chat function, no one is forcing you to look or respond at said team's text towards you.

Bruce1nR

I just wish there were teams that you could scrim that would limit their public chat to "ns" and "gg"

It gets very obnoxious sometimes and then you get the scrims where you go through the trouble of getting everyone in the room and starting it only to find the other team goofing off instead of actually playing.

Yes I understand scrimming eventually gets boring, but when you get bored, go do something else.

[MOD]Polleus

Alright, but can a Gaming Organization take it upon themselves to more strictly enforce the ideals of Professionalism?

- Actions within the community, i.e. Forum Trolling other teams with blatant disrespect, being punished on the League side.
- Penalties for excessive public trash talking (where it gets out of hand in-game or on the forums). As I said there is a line, punishments when it crosses that line?

Etc.

Bruce1nR

davaci wrote: »

The age of the community isn't a factor, there is no imaginary line you'd be crossing by constant trash talking. It's a part of eSports and sports in general, competition grows by shit talking imo.

Trash talking does more harm to the community than anything.

I'll admit I'll mouth off sometimes to get a reaction from the other players and to make things more personal which causes me to focus and put in more effort but thats different from scrimming a bad team and 7 - 0'ing them and then talking crap.

NipXe

It's always the same people who trash talk etc. And then sometimes the nicer people find their rage every now and then.

As for matches where people dispute for visible attributes (flash guard, helmet) when they loose. I think if the team that disputes can't provide proof that they told them to take it off, the match should be replayed instead of over turned.

I agree with you, in general matches and scrims are taken too seriously by the loosing team. But who is to teach them if they don't even want to learn any better.

Hi_QQ

[MOD]Polleus wrote: »

Alright, but can a Gaming Organization take it upon themselves to more strictly enforce the ideals of Professionalism?

- Actions within the community, i.e. Forum Trolling other teams with blatant disrespect, being punished on the League side.
- Penalties for excessive public trash talking (where it gets out of hand in-game or on the forums). As I said there is a line, punishments when it crosses that line?

Etc.

Gaming organizations should be more strict towards teams lying about experience rather than trash talking and disrespecting others, the way I see it is if a team represents an organization it's their responsibility to control their behaviour, an organization shouldn't have to baby sit said team and tell them to know their limits when it comes to trash talking and such.

Far_Q

Honestly, i couldnt agree more. The european pug community had SOME problems; but not to the level i see over there... I tried to mix my community with the NA vent, but that just turned into immediate troll and flak and i had to take them away :L

I think, the people feel they need to seem 'cool' in a respect by belittling someone else to make themselves look bigger.

The flash guard thing? Yes; but its mainly the smarter sheep that dont baa straight away and take the win

Hi_QQ

[MOD]Bruce wrote: »

Trash talking does more harm to the community than anything.

I'll admit I'll mouth off sometimes to get a reaction from the other players and to make things more personal which causes me to focus and put in more effort but thats different from scrimming a bad team and 7 - 0'ing them and then talking crap.

I agree with you on this, I meant trash talking as in getting a reaction out of the other team and "psyching" them out.

[MOD]Polleus

davaci wrote: »

the way I see it is if a team represents an organization it's their responsibility to control their behaviour

But in this case of Cross Fire, a lot of said teams do not even try to control their behavior, even in representing an organization. Doesn't that at a certain point reflect on the ability of the League to enforce it's own ideals?

Artur_Soul

Falloutt wrote: »

yeah seriously no more tbagging...




but really no one really shows respect to anyone, it's normal because it's over the internet, you can talk sh1t without any consequences. People some how think they are bad ass when very little was accomplished. Apparently manners are void on the internet.

Fallout pretty much naled it here. Our community is filled with a bunch of teenagers who try to act "BIG" over the internet and thus throw out there opinion because it does not matter. I won't lie I used to do that back in the early stages of playing competitively. Learning from that I started being professional more and say gh, gg, etc. Most people who troll me I ignore, except for a minor few. I got more respect from other players and made new friends along my way. There should always be rivalries in any sport, but we as a community are abusing that right.

SwagIz4Fagzz

IAmJDog wrote: »

I support this all the way. We need to run ALOT more pugs. It would help people find teams and learn what competitive actually is.

Pugs are useless in this game almost half the teams are stacked or they say a player in there team is afk just to get some1 else to play kuz that player is playing bad

Artur_Soul

[MOD]Polleus wrote: »

But in this case of Cross Fire, a lot of said teams do not even try to control their behavior, even in representing an organization. Doesn't that at a certain point reflect on the ability of the League to enforce it's own ideals?

When I led my previous teams I told them to not even go on the forums and keep it professional. If they wanted to troll, they trolled on mumble.

[MOD]Polleus

CF_aeroX wrote: »

Fallout pretty much naled it here. Our community is filled with a bunch of teenagers who try to act "BIG" over the internet and thus throw out there opinion because it does not matter.

In this case, shouldn't there be a certain responsibility of the Gaming Organization (WOGL, ESL, etc.) to clamp down on such behavior? While yes, they can not control the actions of a player, they can control their participation in League events. Why not enforce a rule that your actions in the general community WILL affect your status in the competitive events?

Artur_Soul

[MOD]Polleus wrote: »

In this case, shouldn't there be a certain responsibility of the Gaming Organization (WOGL, ESL, etc.) to clamp down on such behavior? While yes, they can not control the actions of a player, they can control their participation in League events. Why not enforce a rule that your actions in the general community WILL affect your status in the competitive events?

That would make people second guess their actions and I wouldn't think that is a bad idea. But a league like WOGL with already few admins will have trouble monitoring or people would not want too.

Hi_QQ

[MOD]Polleus wrote: »

In this case, shouldn't there be a certain responsibility of the Gaming Organization (WOGL, ESL, etc.) to clamp down on such behavior? While yes, they can not control the actions of a player, they can control their participation in League events. Why not enforce a rule that your actions in the general community WILL affect your status in the competitive events?

http://www.wogl.org/forums/cf-open-league-information/34040-season-3-official-rules.html

5.10 - Etiquette:

Good sportsmanship is expected at all times. Insulting, racism and excessive swearing will not be tolerated. Players can and will be suspended or banned over in-game conduct for unsportsmanlike conduct. PROPER documentation/reporting must be taken or the report WILL NOT be deemed valid. Examples of unsportsmanlike conduct include excessive and unnecessary shooting of fallen opponent bodies, rude actions towards fallen opponent bodies, dancing on fallen opponent bodies, etc.. The frag is sufficient enough. Excessive gloating may be deemed inappropriate. The system of infractions varies with the level of the action(s), prior infractions, etc... Infractions span from a warning, one [league] week suspension, one [league] month suspension to a full season suspension. We promote a mature and professional atmosphere; Present yourselves in that very manner all while enjoying the competitive nature of this game.

[MOD]Polleus

CF_aeroX wrote: »

That would make people second guess their actions and I wouldn't think that is a bad idea. But a league like WOGL with already few admins will have trouble monitoring or people would not want too.

Let's not specifically turn this towards one organization. That was my fault for that. I understand classic rivalries, they exist across all sports. Rivalries is what makes match-ups interesting and entertaining to lead up to and watch. That's all good and well, but rivalries and "trash talking" do not need to cross the line into blatant insults. It's simply not necessary.

davaci wrote: »

http://www.wogl.org/forums/cf-open-league-information/34040-season-3-official-rules.html

5.10 - Etiquette:

Good sportsmanship is expected at all times. Insulting, racism and excessive swearing will not be tolerated. Players can and will be suspended or banned over in-game conduct for unsportsmanlike conduct. PROPER documentation/reporting must be taken or the report WILL NOT be deemed valid. Examples of unsportsmanlike conduct include excessive and unnecessary shooting of fallen opponent bodies, rude actions towards fallen opponent bodies, dancing on fallen opponent bodies, etc.. The frag is sufficient enough. Excessive gloating may be deemed inappropriate. The system of infractions varies with the level of the action(s), prior infractions, etc... Infractions span from a warning, one [league] week suspension, one [league] month suspension to a full season suspension. We promote a mature and professional atmosphere; Present yourselves in that very manner all while enjoying the competitive nature of this game.

Putting it down on paper and enforcing it, for any organization are two different animals. I am also referring to etiquette OUTSIDE of just your match. I'm talking about overall representation and professionalism as a competitive team for a particular game, in this case CF.

Artur_Soul

davaci wrote: »

http://www.wogl.org/forums/cf-open-league-information/34040-season-3-official-rules.html

5.10 - Etiquette:

Good sportsmanship is expected at all times. Insulting, racism and excessive swearing will not be tolerated. Players can and will be suspended or banned over in-game conduct for unsportsmanlike conduct. PROPER documentation/reporting must be taken or the report WILL NOT be deemed valid. Examples of unsportsmanlike conduct include excessive and unnecessary shooting of fallen opponent bodies, rude actions towards fallen opponent bodies, dancing on fallen opponent bodies, etc.. The frag is sufficient enough. Excessive gloating may be deemed inappropriate. The system of infractions varies with the level of the action(s), prior infractions, etc... Infractions span from a warning, one [league] week suspension, one [league] month suspension to a full season suspension. We promote a mature and professional atmosphere; Present yourselves in that very manner all while enjoying the competitive nature of this game.

Second line: "in-game"

This rule only applies to in-game.

Falloutt

[MOD]Polleus wrote: »

In this case, shouldn't there be a certain responsibility of the Gaming Organization (WOGL, ESL, etc.) to clamp down on such behavior? While yes, they can not control the actions of a player, they can control their participation in League events. Why not enforce a rule that your actions in the general community WILL affect your status in the competitive events?

we shouldn't have to look to a league for this, but leaders of teams to tell their players to do so. Discipline is important for any team to be successful. As soon as people start trash talking, i go ahead and block their chat, and all team leaders should tell their players to do the same.

Artur_Soul

[MOD]Polleus wrote: »

Let's not specifically turn this towards one organization. That was my fault for that. I understand classic rivalries, they exist across all sports. Rivalries is what makes match-ups interesting and entertaining to lead up to and watch. That's all good and well, but rivalries and "trash talking" do not need to cross the line into blatant insults. It's simply not necessary.



Putting it down on paper and enforcing it, for any organization are two different animals.

I couldn't agree more and that's why I only read the forums and rarely reply anymore. If some trashes me, I let them.

thaJaguar

I agree with that Polleus. It's very unprofessional to disrespect another team, or team member because of something they did or something they did not do. There needs to be a specific amount of time for the Ban of the players on the league site. Team is DQed from one season of WOGL? iDk

[MOD]Polleus

Falloutt wrote: »

we shouldn't have to look to a league for this, but leaders of teams to tell their players to do so. Discipline is important for any team to be successful. As soon as people start trash talking, i go ahead and block their chat, and all team leaders should tell their players to do the same.

I completely understand that you shouldn't have to. However, something in this community is not being done correctly. At a certain point, someone SHOULD step in and help instill that process of "your actions will cause consequences", not only in league matches, but in the community interaction in general.

I agree with you completely. However, sometimes discipline needs to be taught before it is learned.

thaJaguar

when i say disrespect i mean on a great level. Like saying 'LifeLine is the worst team out there. They're trash'
I just hate to see a good team go down because of trash talkers.

Jaakke

People dont meet face to face, its online in Internet.They dont understand what its like. If we were to actually meeting face to face on LAN. Then things would change cause people would get knocked out.

niqqerDAVE

I don't mind certain levels of trash talking. It keeps the game interested, gets you committed to try and win. I do stress "certain" though. Trash talking I can take for example: In pre-game lobby Team A tells team B "gl nerds you're gonna need it" or something on that level, I'm fine with it. But when teams mid-game are just like "bads", that ****es me off, makes me want to choke a *****.

DenxiBanned

Falloutt wrote: »

yeah seriously no more tbagging...




but really no one really shows respect to anyone, it's normal because it's over the internet, you can talk sh1t without any consequences. People some how think they are bad ass when very little was accomplished. Apparently manners are void on the internet.

This lack of respect comes from the player trying to use CF to somehow afferm their value of a person.

[MOD]Bruce wrote: »

Trash talking does more harm to the community than anything.

I'll admit I'll mouth off sometimes to get a reaction from the other players and to make things more personal which causes me to focus and put in more effort but thats different from scrimming a bad team and 7 - 0'ing them and then talking crap.

the_poop wrote: »

I don't mind certain levels of trash talking. It keeps the game interested, gets you committed to try and win. I do stress "certain" though. Trash talking I can take for example: In pre-game lobby Team A tells team B "gl nerds you're gonna need it" or something on that level, I'm fine with it. But when teams mid-game are just like "bads", that ****es me off, makes me want to choke a *****.

****, I love trash talking. I think that trying to psych out a team BEFORE a game is 100% awesome, and I support any trash talk made in the pre-game lobby.

During the game, you are playing the game, and should shut up out of mutual respect for your opponents, as well as respect for the game itself.

After the game you should be able to respect your oppinents for playing the game. Even if they're the worst players out there, the fact that they bothered to play is worth noting.

RuSTalt

Hmm...its an interesting topic this imo.
I mean......whether I hate a team or not, if we win,loose or draw I'll always have my gl hf at the start, gh at the half and gg at the end. What I can't stand however, is people just complaining throughout the match. Like, most of the time I'm playing with 200ping and my K2. People complain about ANYTHING. I'm not mentioning any names here, but Dycho from Hounds is such an idiot. My team was beating his pretty easily anyway, and I was playing pretty well. I get another entry frag on him with the k2 and he's like : do that with a proper gun. Next round I 1 deag him and he's like: luck much? And all this rubbish. I can understand people not liking me [well, I can't because im such a cool cat] but whats this rubbish? I never say anything like that. If someone I despise goes 0-7 I don't taunt them about it. Everyone has their off-days. I have to agree with Joseph, kids just complain about anything and everything. They try to act big over the internet and all this crap.

There's also giving respect in game. Like, if you're team is easily beating another you don't just rush straight mid with an mp5. Its so disrespectful to the other team. If your team wants to end the match quickly, go on and do a rush. But its just pathethic to be taunting a team without a word.

I honestly don't know whats wrong with some people. Basic manners are no where in this generation. I'll admit, sometimes I act like the biggest arsehole on this planet with the trash talking but in my defence, its always if i'm provoked. I never go out of my way to start an argument, even in pubs if someone is using a m12 or whatever i'll go ask them to leave first and get rid of it. If they don't ill just ask them to be kicked. Why do people think they're tough or something trying to talk big over the internet? Kids could do with a beating of a hurley when they're younger to sort themselves out. Sometimes kids need a slap which is what most of these idiots didnt get.

However polleus, I DONT agree on the sportsmanship thing. As many euro's probably know im the biggest priick in the world to play against. If its Wogl and you don't have your 5 players in the room in time for the match to begin, you're starting 4v5. Not my problem. If your players have hats on and I notice it, I won't say a thing. Its a teams own responsibility to make sure they have everything in conjunction with the rules. If my team got fcked over by a pumpkin hat or w/e, i'd go apeshit at whoever fcked up first [i ask my team to check storage twice] and then at myself for not looking at everyone when we spawn.