Brainstorm ways to reduce hackers
Comments
-
first - in response to those who think banning a country or two would solve the problem:
NO, it won't
why? Simple, they've already tried it out in CA, what happenned? Little NA/CA/MX cheating kids, also, BR's who bypass the game with ip-camos, so, still problematic, and still a bad game >.>
second - to the brainstorming
i think we should have a clausule in the contract that has to be agreed with to play the game that allows GM's to ban cheaters at sight, no burocracy, just a click or two and BAM! he's gone forever.
also we could use that ZIP/postal code idea, but with the registry in each country, like, RG in brazil, so that each person has to have a valid ID on their countries to play, matching that ID with the ISP data would solve pretty much everything, banning an ISP account from playing the game would solve once and for all the problem, since no one would change their ISP's to play again >.> -
first - in response to those who think banning a country or two would solve the problem:
NO, it won't
why? Simple, they've already tried it out in CA, what happenned? Little NA/CA/MX cheating kids, also, BR's who bypass the game with ip-camos, so, still problematic, and still a bad game >.>
second - to the brainstorming
i think we should have a clausule in the contract that has to be agreed with to play the game that allows GM's to ban cheaters at sight, no burocracy, just a click or two and BAM! he's gone forever.
also we could use that ZIP/postal code idea, but with the registry in each country, like, RG in brazil, so that each person has to have a valid ID on their countries to play, matching that ID with the ISP data would solve pretty much everything, banning an ISP account from playing the game would solve once and for all the problem, since no one would change their ISP's to play again >.>
erm, there is a problem with that, it is just as easy to hide your ISP as it is to hide your IP, in fact, they are like, the exact same thing, your ISP determines some of the digits in your ISP, so in order to ban people via ISP, you would need to talk to them, which would mean paying them to do it, and that is bull, also, a separate contract would need to be negotiated with each and every ISP, and there are like 60,000 in NA alone, so that is not likely to work. -
erm, there is a problem with that, it is just as easy to hide your ISP as it is to hide your IP, in fact, they are like, the exact same thing, your ISP determines some of the digits in your ISP, so in order to ban people via ISP, you would need to talk to them, which would mean paying them to do it, and that is bull, also, a separate contract would need to be negotiated with each and every ISP, and there are like 60,000 in NA alone, so that is not likely to work.
oh well, just hire an assassin and kill the modafookas -.-"
Edit: We could make a limited number of reports per player to unchoke the report system, so for a while limit the reports to let's say, 4 per player per week?
give time to the report system to recover and then they'll work faster, banning people faster and then we get the profit .-.
it's a 2-side sword, will hurt us, but will hurt them a lot more, i think O-o
well... give people some report training also, show them how taking notes on wich round and the exact player's ign will help the staff to ban people faster .-. -
oh well, just hire an assassin and kill the modafookas -.-"
Edit: We could make a limited number of reports per player to unchoke the report system, so for a while limit the reports to let's say, 4 per player per week?
give time to the report system to recover and then they'll work faster, banning people faster and then we get the profit .-.
it's a 2-side sword, will hurt us, but will hurt them a lot more, i think O-o
well... give people some report training also, show them how taking notes on wich round and the exact player's ign will help the staff to ban people faster .-.
the problem is the horrible community? and you want to rely on them more? thats like trusting the government -
the problem is the horrible community? and you want to rely on them more? thats like trusting the government
well, limit the reports per players, that will unchoke the report system, and so, the report system will run smoothly, and will be more effective
about the training, it's just an informative so players would help the report system even more .-. -
hardwear is not too hard to fake.
I have had an idea that i think would be pretty sweet.
the main problem with ALL the current anti hack clients, is that they are all client side, meaning they run on the users computer, and are thus vulnerable to injection as well as alteration or bypassing. no-matter what we do, IP banns, performance measures, EVERYTHING, has one weakness, its all client-side.
my suggestion, would be to get another server, or maybe convert one of the existing servers, (nobody goes on foxtrot right?) to randomly check players for hacks. this wouldn't be like the start-up scan Xtrap does or anything, this would be more along the lines of the in game banning, and other anti hack devices that look at how fast a player is moving, both in terms of their speed, and the speed of their mouse. if you look at a game i used to play called Star-port GE, all of their game is server side processing, and they have 0 hackers.
if the server takes 30 seconds to scan 1 player (really really slow btw) and lets say 1/20 players hack, then every 5 min another player is banned, if the server can scan 1 player every second, then 3 bans a minute will be issued.
This is why I suggested a ping capped server. Xtrap doesn't update enough to stop most hacking. But a ping checker sever side would be very hard to bypass.
90% of the current hackers have 150+ ping, it won't get rid of them all but it will greatly reduce the numbers. -
oh well, just hire an assassin and kill the modafookas -.-"
Edit: We could make a limited number of reports per player to unchoke the report system, so for a while limit the reports to let's say, 4 per player per week?
give time to the report system to recover and then they'll work faster, banning people faster and then we get the profit .-.
it's a 2-side sword, will hurt us, but will hurt them a lot more, i think O-o
well... give people some report training also, show them how taking notes on wich round and the exact player's ign will help the staff to ban people faster .-.
terrible, terrible idea.
noobs that cry hacker and report someone are not likely to do it every day
people that care about reporting hackers are likely to report a lot more often than the noobs
i keep track of hacker's IGNs, what hack they were using and rounds they were hacking on all on a piece of paper, and then when i feel like it i report 15 or so of them at a time. Your idea would make it so people can't do that, and would make reporting hackers even more boring than it already is. -
This is why I suggested a ping capped server. Xtrap doesn't update enough to stop most hacking. But a ping checker sever side would be very hard to bypass.
90% of the current hackers have 150+ ping, it won't get rid of them all but it will greatly reduce the numbers.
the ping restriction is the same as all the other in game anti hack measures, it can be bypassed because it runs on the local system.
edit
there may be less of a reason to create a hack to hide your ping though. -
No, a ping cap on the server its self, it won't be local.
All the players game clients send info to the server and the server sends that info to the other players. If the server is programed to respond to slow info by auto kicking the player out of the room, then the only way to bypass it would be to hack the server.
Which would be much harder then fooling a client side anti hack system. -
No, a ping cap on the server its self, it won't be local.
All the players game clients send info to the server and the server sends that info to the other players. If the server is programed to respond to slow info by auto kicking the player out of the room, then the only way to bypass it would be to hack the server.
Which would be much harder then fooling a client side anti hack system.
or to alter your packets with a modified time stamp. it really wouldn't be that hard. -
actually, what would work a lot better than ping cap servers, is ping capped rooms. z8 has done research in other versions, and nobody plays on the ping capped servers, at all. lag might not be as much of a problem, but what happens is the ping cap server becomes e8 and nobody but the pro's go there, so it is not worth a whole server. however ping capped rooms, would allow for more options, and it wouldn't hog a whole server so 600 snobs can have only 20 ping in their games. again there is a problem with bypasses, but it could be a definite possibility.
sorry for double post, im a nub, i deserve the 7th circle, ik. -
True that you could modify the packet timestamp(which requires manual tweaking because not all people have the same ping, and most hackers don't have the skills for that. there downloading from someone else after all.) but most systems send info and wait for it to be sent back and compare the pings.or to alter your packets with a modified time stamp. it really wouldn't be that hard.
You may be able to change the time stamp but the server is still keeping track on how long it takes for what it sends to be send back, thats how it knows your ping in game. so if your packets say it takes 0.052 seconds for your info to reach it but the server sees it took 0.324 seconds for it's info to reach you and then come back to it (the packet says it took 0.052 to return, but the clock that is on the server says it send the info 0.324 seconds ago). You'd have to hack the server to change this.
Edit: ninja'd well typing this. -
True that you could modify the packet timestamp(which requires manual tweaking because not all people have the same ping, and most hackers don't have the skills for that. there downloading from someone else after all.) but most systems send info and wait for it to be sent back and compare the pings.
You may be able to change the time stamp but the server is still keeping track on how long it takes for what it sends to be send back, thats how it knows your ping in game. so if your packets say it takes 0.052 seconds for your info to reach it but the server sees it took 0.324 seconds for it's info to reach you and then come back to it (the packet says it took 0.052 to return, but the clock that is on the server says it send the info 0.324 seconds ago). You'd have to hack the server to change this.
Edit: ninja'd well typing this.
lol idk what their system looks like, but there is probobaly a reason to not do a ping capped server, nubs would still rage so....
the best thing i think would be ping rooms. then whole clans can play together, and you can select how much lag you want in your room. this would also prevent z8 from looking like Brazil hating people, and not allow lawsuits. and if the software to monitor pings were on the room host computer, then the host kick would already be in place, and minimal coding and server processing power would be required. -
lol idk what their system looks like, but there is probobaly a reason to not do a ping capped server, nubs would still rage so....
the best thing i think would be ping rooms. then whole clans can play together, and you can select how much lag you want in your room. this would also prevent z8 from looking like Brazil hating people, and not allow lawsuits. and if the software to monitor pings were on the room host computer, then the host kick would already be in place, and minimal coding and server processing power would be required.
+1 to this ^ -
lol idk what their system looks like, but there is probobaly a reason to not do a ping capped server, nubs would still rage so....
the best thing i think would be ping rooms. then whole clans can play together, and you can select how much lag you want in your room. this would also prevent z8 from looking like Brazil hating people, and not allow lawsuits. and if the software to monitor pings were on the room host computer, then the host kick would already be in place, and minimal coding and server processing power would be required.
Nubs will ALWAYS rage, can't change that.
Ping rooms would actually be harder to code then the a ping capped server, remember all info is still being sent through the server. And your suggesting it be client side rather then server side (after arguing why client side is a weakness to hacking).
A lawsuit about discrimination based on a ping cap would not make it to court because there will be no solid evidence that Z8 was being biased towards anyone. And does anyone read the terms of agreement they signed when they make a account? I did, and its say says Z8 retains ownership and the right to deny anyone from playing, so they can't be sued over a ping cap anyways.
And Finally I'll try to simplify my Previous posts.
most computer networks send a ping test to all connected computers ever so often (usually 10 per second).
The server sends a small number of tiny packets to your computer and records when it send them.
Your computer receives the packets and sends them back. (this is when a timestamp hack can affect it)
The server receives the returned packets and compares their time stamp to its recording of when it sent them.
If they match, the ping test a success and shows your ping.
Now then, all a timestamp hack can do is change the info that says when the packet was received and sent, it can't change what the server recorded when it send you that packet.
so for example,
A packet is sent at 12:01.023 and the server records when it send it.
the packet arrives at 12:01.176
the hack changes the packets recorded arrival on the packet to 12:01.74 and sents the packet back.
the packet returns to the server at 12:01.329.
the server sees it took 0.306 seconds for the packet to return but the packet says it took 0.106 to make the trip.
normally this come up as a error/failer on the server and it try again.
But i'd suggest that the server kick the player after so many failed ping test,. (I'd choose 20).
The only way around this is to hack the server it self.
Edit: I type at 20 words per minute and have to think of a example, so this took awhile to type. -
Nubs will ALWAYS rage, can't change that.
Ping rooms would actually be harder to code then the a ping capped server, remember all info is still being sent through the server. And your suggesting it be client side rather then server side (after arguing why client side is a weakness to hacking).
A lawsuit about discrimination based on a ping cap would not make it to court because there will be no solid evidence that Z8 was being biased towards anyone. And does anyone read the terms of agreement they signed when they make a account? I did, and its say says Z8 retains ownership and the right to deny anyone from playing, so they can't be sued over a ping cap anyways.
And Finally I'll try to simplify my Previous posts.
most computer networks send a ping test to all connected computers ever so often (usually 10 per second).
The server sends a small number of tiny packets to your computer and records when it send them.
Your computer receives the packets and sends them back. (this is when a timestamp hack can affect it)
The server receives the returned packets and compares their time stamp to its recording of when it sent them.
If they match, the ping test a success and shows your ping.
Now then, all a timestamp hack can do is change the info that says when the packet was received and sent, it can't change what the server recorded when it send you that packet.
so for example,
A packet is sent at 12:01.023 and the server records when it send it.
the packet arrives at 12:01.176
the hack changes the packets recorded arrival on the packet to 12:01.74 and sents the packet back.
the packet returns to the server at 12:01.329.
the server sees it took 0.306 seconds for the packet to return but the packet says it took 0.106 to make the trip.
normally this come up as a error/failer on the server and it try again.
But i'd suggest that the server kick the player after so many failed ping test,. (I'd choose 20).
The only way around this is to hack the server it self.
even though ping rooms would be harder, i think they will work better, and because the host is the one examining the other players pings, their computer in essence becomes a server, thus adding the layer of protection of not having the program be client side. i definitely see what you are saying about the ping, my only experience is in closed networks and with robotics, so i defer expertise there, and i think ping capped rooms have one advantage, it isnt tied to any one ping range, example, if they wanted to do ping capped servers, they would divide up the community, so in the evenings nobody would be in the low ping servers, and i think that they would be generally underutilized. the other issue with a ping cap server, is that i have the feeling that its user base would go down even more, because the people who really wanted it, would kick all the nubs with low pings, so it would end up being a server for only 2nd lt up, egotistical people, like echo 8 is now, but 100x worse. and there would only ever be 1 channel in that server full. ping limited rooms however, can be created wherever they are wanted, as soon as someone joins with more than the quota ping, BAM, host kick, even during game. this also would allow people to play with their clan. for example if the ping server is set to 100 (a nice round number) well most of the people in my clan are like 80, but there are a few who go up to 120 (limit to be in clan) so they would be outcast, because lol, we are not going to play with lagging hackers for one guy. -
even though ping rooms would be harder, i think they will work better, and because the host is the one examining the other players pings, their computer in essence becomes a server, thus adding the layer of protection of not having the program be client side. i definitely see what you are saying about the ping, my only experience is in closed networks and with robotics, so i defer expertise there, and i think ping capped rooms have one advantage, it isnt tied to any one ping range, example, if they wanted to do ping capped servers, they would divide up the community, so in the evenings nobody would be in the low ping servers, and i think that they would be generally underutilized. the other issue with a ping cap server, is that i have the feeling that its user base would go down even more, because the people who really wanted it, would kick all the nubs with low pings, so it would end up being a server for only 2nd lt up, egotistical people, like echo 8 is now, but 100x worse. and there would only ever be 1 channel in that server full. ping limited rooms however, can be created wherever they are wanted, as soon as someone joins with more than the quota ping, BAM, host kick, even during game. this also would allow people to play with their clan. for example if the ping server is set to 100 (a nice round number) well most of the people in my clan are like 80, but there are a few who go up to 120 (limit to be in clan) so they would be outcast, because lol, we are not going to play with lagging hackers for one guy.
Your suggesting that the host kicks the player from the room, do you mean host as in the player or host as in the computer of the host of the room?
If you mean the player, your suggesting giving the host full command of the kicking, which is a bad idea. (look how abused the kicking is now)
If you mean the the host computer, then not only would it have what I suggested to be put on the server be put on the users client instead, but also complicated extras. Have it on and off, ability to change the min/max, ect. and have all this data still be sent through the servers and then to the host computer to be processed.
Your points about the community segregating its self are valid, but its already happening.
BR's when in mass kick non-BR's, NA players kick BRs. NA players going to echo8 to get away from BR's. BR's don't kick BR hackers because they think the NA players are hacking and want to get "even". Both groups HATE each other.
Ask any BR that speaks English which group as more hackers, and they'll most likely say the NA players do. (and they believe this)
Why? because most of them don't understand how ping affects the game, so when they see something that doesn't make sense they call hack (on their screen they see they shot you 20 times, on your screen they missed 20 times)
My suggestion would get rid of all the high pings and force them to use a closer server if they want to play. (clan servers won't be ping capped)
Foxtrot and US south are the closest servers to the BRs, but they refuse to play on them.
Edit: The more I think about it the more I think the 0 ping glitch is intentional. For the past few days, I've been kicked way less then usual. -
Your suggesting that the host kicks the player from the room, do you mean host as in the player or host as in the computer of the host of the room?
If you mean the player, your suggesting giving the host full command of the kicking, which is a bad idea. (look how abused the kicking is now)
If you mean the the host computer, then not only would it have what I suggested to be put on the server be put on the users client instead, but also complicated extras. Have it on and off, ability to change the min/max, ect. and have all this data still be sent through the servers and then to the host computer to be processed.
Your points about the community segregating its self are valid, but its already happening.
BR's when in mass kick non-BR's, NA players kick BRs. NA players going to echo8 to get away from BR's. BR's don't kick BR hackers because they think the NA players are hacking and want to get "even". Both groups HATE each other.
Ask any BR that speaks English which group as more hackers, and they'll most likely say the NA players do. (and they believe this)
Why? because most of them don't understand how ping affects the game, so when they see something that doesn't make sense they call hack (on their screen they see they shot you 20 times, on your screen they missed 20 times)
My suggestion would get rid of all the high pings and force them to use a closer server if they want to play. (clan servers won't be ping capped)
Foxtrot and US south are the closest servers to the BRs, but they refuse to play on them.
Edit: The more I think about it the more I think the 0 ping glitch is intentional. For the past few days, I've been kicked way less then usual.
Yeah, the hosts computer would be in charge of dishing out the kicks, and while it would be a little bit of work, i don't think it would be too hard, there are 2 good ways to do it. one would be to add the ping count to the host kick, and automate it, the other would be to add the ping requirement to the password code, in essence it would deny you access to the room the same way the password does. this would probably be the better way to do it. as far as forcing the SA players into the US south servers. the sad fact is that probably half the players in crossfire, have 175+ ping. by forcing them into a different server, the level of competitvness and play will double on the normal servers, which will cause nubs to go play with the lagers. without the nubs to f12 them, all of the people who enjoy their non wogl guns and items will be sent away, going to the lagging server, because thats the only place that they wont get kicked. this leaves the low ping, egotistics, which is what we already have in E8
in Korean CF (or some other version) they have ping capped servers, and nobody plays in them, for the reasons i listed above. -
Yeah, the hosts computer would be in charge of dishing out the kicks, and while it would be a little bit of work, i don't think it would be too hard, there are 2 good ways to do it. one would be to add the ping count to the host kick, and automate it, the other would be to add the ping requirement to the password code, in essence it would deny you access to the room the same way the password does. this would probably be the better way to do it. as far as forcing the SA players into the US south servers. the sad fact is that probably half the players in crossfire, have 175+ ping. by forcing them into a different server, the level of competitvness and play will double on the normal servers, which will cause nubs to go play with the lagers. without the nubs to f12 them, all of the people who enjoy their non wogl guns and items will be sent away, going to the lagging server, because thats the only place that they wont get kicked. this leaves the low ping, egotistics, which is what we already have in E8
in Korean CF (or some other version) they have ping capped servers, and nobody plays in them, for the reasons i listed above.
The ping code one would be much simpler to do and I can see it working.
The servers that the high ping players be sent too would make there ping LOWER, so they won't lag anymore. (had a BR clan mate once, he joined a game I was in at US south server and he was amazed that his pinged was 80 there compared to his normal 150 on alpha)
E8 is the tournament enforced rules channel and is watched over by a small group of egotistical players, not all players are like that.
And yes it is VERY sad that so many people play a game that is on a whole continent away from them. -
The ping code one would be much simpler to do and I can see it working.
The servers that the high ping players be sent too would make there ping LOWER, so they won't lag anymore. (had a BR clan mate once, he joined a game I was in at US south server and he was amazed that his pinged was 80 there compared to his normal 150 on alpha)
E8 is the tournament enforced rules channel and is watched over by a small group of egotistical players, not all players are like that.
And yes it is VERY sad that so many people play a game that is on a whole continent away from them.
edit.
i think this is the first intelligent discussion on how to solve game problems that i have ever seen or been a part of.
even if they are forced to go to us south, i can still see this causing many more american player to migrate to US south. if i am bored and just want to blow some peeps up in TDM, or want a casual game of SnD or elim, i dont want to play with a bunch of 40 ping pro's. im going to go to a server where i dont have to try-hard, and most of the players are like that, they wont want to deal with the sudden increase in competitiveness. so they will go play with the south Americans. it doesn't matter what we think though, z8 has decided not to do a ping restricted server, because of what happened on those servers on other versions. i also hate to say it, but most south Americans play on wooden computers and get very low frame-rates. this is why all the 12 year old kids like going against them. they have an advantage from the start. -
If you uninstall CrossFire, you wouldnt have to deal with the hackers period. See the logic?
yeah, but i mostly play with clan-mates or friends anyway, so it doesn't really bother me, and most hacks are easy as long as you are not on egypt or ship. -
yeah, but i mostly play with clan-mates or friends anyway, so it doesn't really bother me, and most hacks are easy as long as you are not on egypt or ship.
i mostly play gm and knife tdm and regular tdm , and the people i hate are speeders, wallers, and one hit kills; thats basically all i see anyway so thats why. -
edit.
i think this is the first intelligent discussion on how to solve game problems that i have ever seen or been a part of.
even if they are forced to go to us south, i can still see this causing many more american player to migrate to US south. if i am bored and just want to blow some peeps up in TDM, or want a casual game of SnD or elim, i dont want to play with a bunch of 40 ping pro's. im going to go to a server where i dont have to try-hard, and most of the players are like that, they wont want to deal with the sudden increase in competitiveness. so they will go play with the south Americans. it doesn't matter what we think though, z8 has decided not to do a ping restricted server, because of what happened on those servers on other versions. i also hate to say it, but most south Americans play on wooden computers and get very low frame-rates. this is why all the 12 year old kids like going against them. they have an advantage from the start.
Playing against high pingers is double edge sword. On one hand they're easier to kill and don't require much to beat. On the other hand they easily have the most amount of QQers and are the most kick happy. (9 times out of 10 the one kicking me is a 130+ pinger)
The thing is, there's no effective way I can think of that would decrease the amount of hackers and still keep most of the player base easy.
True that compared to the average high ping, a low ping does much better. I don't even need to try to maintain a good KDR in a room with lots of high pingers. -
If you uninstall CrossFire, you wouldnt have to deal with the hackers period. See the logic?
Jbird, of all the post I've seen you post to night, I have yet too see one that doesn't sound like a troll trying to boost his ego.
So please, unless you can come up with a logical and civil discussion about this topic. Please leave.
Categories
- All Categories
- Z8Games
- Off-Topic - Go To Game OT Forums
- 1 Z8 Forum Discussion & Suggestions
- 16 Z8Games Announcements
- Rules & Conduct
- 5.2K CrossFire
- 951 CrossFire Announcements
- 942 Previous Announcements
- 2 Previous Patch Notes
- 1.4K Community
- 122 Modes
- 600 Suggestions
- 85 Clan Discussion and Recruitment
- 274 CF Competitive Forum
- 19 CFCL
- 26 Looking for a Team?
- 703 CrossFire Support
- 52 Suggestion
- 116 Bugs
- 29 CrossFire Guides
- 166 Technical Issues
- 47 CrossFire Off Topic