Evidence Compilation for Saidin (Will be updated as Sketcheyes produces more)
Dear GM Saidin,
I noticed that you said you have yet to go through all of the evidence involved. Let me give you a rundown of the situation, from the start to the current.
To begin, let me start off as listing their roster of 5 at the time.
1: Blitzed
2: Malte
3: Doop
4: CK
5: Sketcheyes
ERICK xFire'd me saying "Dude...some serious **** is about to happen with Kanata...". Out of curiosity, I asked what and he linked me those chat logs. I said wow...but, if he wants to stay anonymous then nothing will ever happen. ERICK agreed, and said he just wanted to show that Malte and Roth were scum.
So, he posted it.
The initial source: http://forum.z8games.com/showthread.php?t=280996
In that, you have an anonymous teammate coming forward saying "Don't tell anyone, but we ghosted". Sketch gave ERICK the "okay" to post those chat logs before ERICK did (igotchubro).
ERICK convinced Sketcheyes (the initial source) to come out and say he was the source. The admission can be found here: http://forum.z8games.com/showthread.php?t=281003
Anyway, the backlash was immediate and strong from the ex-LifeLine members. This was the initial knee-jerk reaction from the LifeLine boys who are currently in Ace Gaming.
Blitzed also attacked Sketcheyes in private, as can be seen here: http://imgur.com/a/kIFsn
In those logs, Blitzed says "We would never condone doing that", accuses Sketcheyes of being hyped up on xanax.
Malte also spends these next few hours messaging Kyle (ZZXQ, the ESL head admin), coming up with some elaborate story that this was Sketcheyes' way of getting back at them. Malte xFire's Kyle about how Sketcheyes was on drugs, and asked him and Roth to stay over. When they told him no, he immediately posted this to ERICK while on the drugs.
While it was true that Sketcheyes had blacked out and asked Roth to stay over at his place, that had happened more than a week previously in celebration of Victoria Day. Malte and Roth failed to mention that timetable.
At this point in the evidence, however, it is nothing more than he-said, she-said. Malte and Roth say they would never even discuss it, and Sketcheyes says that they did in fact ghost.
In this, everything that Roth and Malte have said up to this point has been shown to be a lie. Another teammate, CK, has come out saying that they did in fact discuss it, and even agree on it. He says, however:
By itself, in my eyes (and in the ESG head admin's eyes) that should mean action should be taken. But, there is more evidence to come.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRR0PE2-3Ak
In that video, Kanata members discuss their ghosting. ERICK and Sketcheyes uploaded this in direct response to Malte and Roth saying "We would never even think about ghosting." It invalidates Roth and Malte's testimony, as it shows them to be unreliable.
At that point in time, the evidence was:
1 player remember talking about ghosting, and 1 says they went through.
And the only people who denied it have been shown to be liars (Iceman later posted). The nail in the coffin would be to get the last person's perspective, and...
He later changed his story again to,
So, the evidence comes to:
1. Roth and Malte and Iceman saying "No way!"
2. Roth and Malte's testimony being invalidated because of the fact that they have video evidence showing they're willing to lie.
3. 3 other members saying, respectively, "I thought they were joking, we definitely okay'd it as a team", "We definitely did it", and "We definitely wanted to, and we definitely did...but I don't remember clearly enough to be 100%."
So your evidence in total comes to Iceman vs 3 others + video evidence showing them discussing it.
Part 1: The Videos.
Polleus had a disturbing comment to me in a thread yesterday. He said:
For some reason, people seem to think that the videos are somehow different. That, somehow, because the Carbon video lasted 4 minutes it implies that there is more substance.
The Carbon Video:
In it, not one time are any of the members shown to be logged into CF. Not one time is a match so much as mentioned, until they ask for the password to their room (in a different conversation). Not one time is the word "ghosting" mentioned, or are "calls" mentioned. The only thing that is said is "David you better not be on the phone with Andre", to which David says "I wouldn't do that anymore". At no point do they even so much as mention CrossFire! Yet alone any bribes, or leagues, or anything else!
In fact, in the entire Carbon bust video, Andre and everyone in the mumble (except David) are laughing about the situation, playing it off as a joke. BERT LITERALLY SAYS "I WAS JUST JOKING"
So, the videos each show the teams discussing ghosting, but have reason to doubt their authenticity as strict evidence.
Part 2: The "Witnesses"
In the Carbon situation, DavidLive came out and admitted that he was ghosting.
In the LifeLine situation, Sketcheyes came out and admitted that they were ghosting.
One for one.
In the Carbon situation, Bertman and Brando came out and admitted that they were ghosting.
In the LifeLine situation, Doop came out and admitted that they were ghosting, but says his memory of it is unreliable since it was so long ago.
Three for two.
In the LifeLine situation, CK says that they had all agreed to do it, but he thought that they were joking (See Part 1: The Videos, and how Bert says "I was just joking").
Three for three.
The only difference in the situations is that Iceman, Roth, and Malte all emphatically and incessantly are denying their involvement in any ghosting; also, two of the 3 witnesses helping Sketcheyes' side are admittedly not as reliable in terms of a hard "yes".
However, Roth and Malte have already been proven to be liars.
Part 3: Circumstantial evidence.
I am loathe to include this, as I think it's a very silly way of proving anything, but I should remain thorough in my synopsis of the situation for you, Saidin.
The replays of their matches that Iceman ghosted in match up perfectly with Malte's decision making and calls throughout the entire game. Perfectly. He even mentions at one point "I have a feeling they're all long, everyone stack it, go, I'm flanking." the moment they all rotate toward long.
This is similar to the Carbon situation, as it felt like to many people that Carbon somehow knew exactly where they were the entire match, though there were never any comms matched up to the situation.
This is where I write my opinion, so you don't have to read this, Saidin. No more "evidence" at this point is to be had; however, Sketcheyes has probably a hundred bandicam files to go through, and has said he will be posting more evidence to come. ERICK also has several other witnesses who very clearly remember Kanata talking about ghosting. They are reluctant to come forward, as they are still friends with those involved.
In my eyes, there is no doubt left as to what should be done. There is just as much evidence as there was against Carbon. If you think that is not enough evidence, then ban LifeLine for as long as you have banned Carbon up-to-date, and immediately un-ban Carbon.
If you think that it is enough evidence, then ban LifeLine for as long as you had planned on banning Carbon.
It's really that simple.
The argument that "There isn't enough evidence" or that "We should wait for more" is simply illogical.
My personal preference would be to un-ban the members of Carbon, and to ban LifeLine members for as long as you have banned Carbon up-to-date. Contrary to popular belief, I do not simply want to ban the top players into obsolescence. I simply want the right things to be done, and I feel very strongly about the things I believe in.
I noticed that you said you have yet to go through all of the evidence involved. Let me give you a rundown of the situation, from the start to the current.
To begin, let me start off as listing their roster of 5 at the time.
1: Blitzed
2: Malte
3: Doop
4: CK
5: Sketcheyes
In the beginning
ERICK xFire'd me saying "Dude...some serious **** is about to happen with Kanata...". Out of curiosity, I asked what and he linked me those chat logs. I said wow...but, if he wants to stay anonymous then nothing will ever happen. ERICK agreed, and said he just wanted to show that Malte and Roth were scum.
So, he posted it.
The initial source: http://forum.z8games.com/showthread.php?t=280996
In that, you have an anonymous teammate coming forward saying "Don't tell anyone, but we ghosted". Sketch gave ERICK the "okay" to post those chat logs before ERICK did (igotchubro).
ERICK convinced Sketcheyes (the initial source) to come out and say he was the source. The admission can be found here: http://forum.z8games.com/showthread.php?t=281003
Anyway, the backlash was immediate and strong from the ex-LifeLine members. This was the initial knee-jerk reaction from the LifeLine boys who are currently in Ace Gaming.
Blitzed wrote:No one has ever ghosted for me or a team that I have played for. Tell your source(s) to come forward with some evidence too.. lol.
Blitzed wrote:We would never even discuss ghosting, we're better than that lol..I would never condone outside help.
Malte wrote:Like we would ever need to ghost to beat any other team in the game. Never even came up.
Blitzed also attacked Sketcheyes in private, as can be seen here: http://imgur.com/a/kIFsn
In those logs, Blitzed says "We would never condone doing that", accuses Sketcheyes of being hyped up on xanax.
Malte also spends these next few hours messaging Kyle (ZZXQ, the ESL head admin), coming up with some elaborate story that this was Sketcheyes' way of getting back at them. Malte xFire's Kyle about how Sketcheyes was on drugs, and asked him and Roth to stay over. When they told him no, he immediately posted this to ERICK while on the drugs.
While it was true that Sketcheyes had blacked out and asked Roth to stay over at his place, that had happened more than a week previously in celebration of Victoria Day. Malte and Roth failed to mention that timetable.
At this point in the evidence, however, it is nothing more than he-said, she-said. Malte and Roth say they would never even discuss it, and Sketcheyes says that they did in fact ghost.
Liars exposed
CK wrote:[In regards to ghosting]As a team we ok'ed it, we all did.
In this, everything that Roth and Malte have said up to this point has been shown to be a lie. Another teammate, CK, has come out saying that they did in fact discuss it, and even agree on it. He says, however:
CK wrote:I thought the entire idea of ghosting was all a joke...
By itself, in my eyes (and in the ESG head admin's eyes) that should mean action should be taken. But, there is more evidence to come.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRR0PE2-3Ak
In that video, Kanata members discuss their ghosting. ERICK and Sketcheyes uploaded this in direct response to Malte and Roth saying "We would never even think about ghosting." It invalidates Roth and Malte's testimony, as it shows them to be unreliable.
The Nail in the Coffin
At that point in time, the evidence was:
1 player remember talking about ghosting, and 1 says they went through.
And the only people who denied it have been shown to be liars (Iceman later posted). The nail in the coffin would be to get the last person's perspective, and...
Doop wrote:We definitely ghosted, but I don't want to get banned.
He later changed his story again to,
Doop wrote:...well, I don't remember clearly, it was a long time ago...but we most likely did. We all wanted to. Burning bridges 2014.
So, the evidence comes to:
1. Roth and Malte and Iceman saying "No way!"
2. Roth and Malte's testimony being invalidated because of the fact that they have video evidence showing they're willing to lie.
3. 3 other members saying, respectively, "I thought they were joking, we definitely okay'd it as a team", "We definitely did it", and "We definitely wanted to, and we definitely did...but I don't remember clearly enough to be 100%."
So your evidence in total comes to Iceman vs 3 others + video evidence showing them discussing it.
Comparison to the Carbon Situation
Part 1: The Videos.
Polleus had a disturbing comment to me in a thread yesterday. He said:
Polleus wrote:Also, the carbon evidence was OVERWHELMING. David got caught admitting to the bribe and the act of ghosting. We have video proof of that.
For some reason, people seem to think that the videos are somehow different. That, somehow, because the Carbon video lasted 4 minutes it implies that there is more substance.
The Carbon Video:
In it, not one time are any of the members shown to be logged into CF. Not one time is a match so much as mentioned, until they ask for the password to their room (in a different conversation). Not one time is the word "ghosting" mentioned, or are "calls" mentioned. The only thing that is said is "David you better not be on the phone with Andre", to which David says "I wouldn't do that anymore". At no point do they even so much as mention CrossFire! Yet alone any bribes, or leagues, or anything else!
In fact, in the entire Carbon bust video, Andre and everyone in the mumble (except David) are laughing about the situation, playing it off as a joke. BERT LITERALLY SAYS "I WAS JUST JOKING"
So, the videos each show the teams discussing ghosting, but have reason to doubt their authenticity as strict evidence.
Part 2: The "Witnesses"
In the Carbon situation, DavidLive came out and admitted that he was ghosting.
In the LifeLine situation, Sketcheyes came out and admitted that they were ghosting.
One for one.
In the Carbon situation, Bertman and Brando came out and admitted that they were ghosting.
In the LifeLine situation, Doop came out and admitted that they were ghosting, but says his memory of it is unreliable since it was so long ago.
Three for two.
In the LifeLine situation, CK says that they had all agreed to do it, but he thought that they were joking (See Part 1: The Videos, and how Bert says "I was just joking").
Three for three.
The only difference in the situations is that Iceman, Roth, and Malte all emphatically and incessantly are denying their involvement in any ghosting; also, two of the 3 witnesses helping Sketcheyes' side are admittedly not as reliable in terms of a hard "yes".
However, Roth and Malte have already been proven to be liars.
Part 3: Circumstantial evidence.
I am loathe to include this, as I think it's a very silly way of proving anything, but I should remain thorough in my synopsis of the situation for you, Saidin.
The replays of their matches that Iceman ghosted in match up perfectly with Malte's decision making and calls throughout the entire game. Perfectly. He even mentions at one point "I have a feeling they're all long, everyone stack it, go, I'm flanking." the moment they all rotate toward long.
This is similar to the Carbon situation, as it felt like to many people that Carbon somehow knew exactly where they were the entire match, though there were never any comms matched up to the situation.
Conclusion
This is where I write my opinion, so you don't have to read this, Saidin. No more "evidence" at this point is to be had; however, Sketcheyes has probably a hundred bandicam files to go through, and has said he will be posting more evidence to come. ERICK also has several other witnesses who very clearly remember Kanata talking about ghosting. They are reluctant to come forward, as they are still friends with those involved.
In my eyes, there is no doubt left as to what should be done. There is just as much evidence as there was against Carbon. If you think that is not enough evidence, then ban LifeLine for as long as you have banned Carbon up-to-date, and immediately un-ban Carbon.
If you think that it is enough evidence, then ban LifeLine for as long as you had planned on banning Carbon.
It's really that simple.
The argument that "There isn't enough evidence" or that "We should wait for more" is simply illogical.
My personal preference would be to un-ban the members of Carbon, and to ban LifeLine members for as long as you have banned Carbon up-to-date. Contrary to popular belief, I do not simply want to ban the top players into obsolescence. I simply want the right things to be done, and I feel very strongly about the things I believe in.
Comments
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Surely you have some kind of video links or voice recordings that you forgot to add, not just IM conversations?
There was only one video link in the entire Carbon situation, which can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--p558M7ACE
The situation is identical in terms of evidence. -
Good post, however I dont agree with you saying carbon should be unbanned because ace gets banned lol. Both did the scene dirty and should pay out their dues. If ace doesnt get banned the carbon should be unbanned seeing as these are both similar situations.
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Good post, however I dont agree with you saying carbon should be unbanned because ace gets banned lol. Both did the scene dirty and should pay out their dues. If ace doesnt get banned the carbon should be unbanned seeing as these are both similar situations.
I understand where you're coming from, and as I said that last section is strictly my opinion, not any evidence involved. I think it would be a suitable punishment for considering ghosting, even if the evidence isn't strong enough to support that they went through with it.
But, I agree with you that Carbon needs to be unbanned if Kanata is not. -
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To me (From a personal standpoint) the video seems enough to at least assume the team at the time intended to get some form of unauthorized "help" (based off the tone of the conversation)
On another note however to those who have asked me, would you ban them from ESL. The answer is definitely NO unless our contracted partner tells us to remove them from the events, or they violate a rule that would result in a team ban from our events. At this point in time neither of those 2 things has happened.
I think as an administrator I would not ban them from my league jurisdiction (ESL) for the following reasons:
1 - The amount of time passed and roster changed since the incident may have occurred
2 - The event in question is not an event that ESL had influence or administrative authority in, therefore to ban a team for violation of rules in another league is not something we do, unless the ban is from the game itself and not just another league.
3 - The evidence while very much present is not enough to 100% condemn the team of cheating. While yes as I spoke with Reid it makes me question my original stance that they 100% didn't do it, to me thinking they may have done this, I still think that current evidence is still not quite enough.
4 - They only cheated against 2 lower level teams if they even did. This to me right here is what made me question motives. If they were going to cheat, why would they not have cheated in matches that would have got them to China, instead of doing it for 2 games they would have more than likely won without assistance ?
5 - As for the similarities to Carbon situation, I do agree that it is similar, however DavidLive (The Admin who ghosted) came forward and said he did it, whereas those directly involved would have only been (ICE + Malte) if this did actually happen, and both of them have yet to admit anything.
So while yes in my personal opinion it feels that something very well could have happened, I am not going to hate on or condemn a team in any way until I know for sure it happened. I will continue to allow this team in ESL, because their is no valid reasons for them to be removed from our events at this time. -
Ellustrial wrote: »
Erick scumbag took my ****ing video and stole my views. I'm reporting your channel bicht. -
If ace doesnt get banned the carbon should be unbanned seeing as these are both similar situations.
#FreeCarbonEllustrial wrote: »But, I agree with you that Carbon needs to be unbanned if Kanata is not.
I'll get them one day.The undisputed top team right now would be banned and that is unfortunate for the competitiveness of future tournaments, but it is the right thing to do. -
Xotek you are being biased on your statments. You already have the mindset that the CFS S1 Lifeline players cheated even without having legitimate proof. As of right now your assumption is invalid until more evidence is shown.
Assumptions does not mean it's proof but only a misinformed guess. -
Xotek you are being biased on your statments. You already have the mindset that the CFS S1 Lifeline players cheated even without having legitimate proof. As of right now your assumption is invalid until more evidence is shown.
Assumptions does not mean it's proof but only a misinformed guess.
Are you serious? His conclusion was like 1/10th the evidence actually shown on the thread. He even said "This is where I write my opinion, so you don't have to read this". What else do you want?
His post is far from biased. -
Xotek you are being biased on your statments. You already have the mindset that the CFS S1 Lifeline players cheated even without having legitimate proof. As of right now your assumption is invalid until more evidence is shown.
Assumptions does not mean it's proof but only a misinformed guess.
Did u get inducted into the cf illuminati? Please put in a good word for me I'll do anything to get in even if that means taking out xoteks internet or anyone that stands In the way. It's my dream to get in ever since i started playing. Hook a brotha up with a position. Pm me if u want me. -
Are you serious? His conclusion was like 1/10th the evidence actually shown on the thread. He even said "This is where I write my opinion, so you don't have to read this". What else do you want?
His post is far from biased.
I am going at this being unbaised as possible and I have seen all of the evidence against Lifeline and also compared it to the Carbon situation. I do not see how it is the same or enough proof that they ghosted.
Lets be real here, we cant say that they DID or DIDN'T ghost from what we have seen. All of this is still PLAUSIBLE though
Oh for those who want Carbon unbanned, I might as well start ghosting when I stream since it will go unpunished. That is the most moronic idea I have ever heard. If anyone cheats for any reason, they must face the punishment. Think before you speak please. -
I am going at this being unbaised as possible and I have seen all of the evidence against Lifeline and also compared it to the Carbon situation. I do not see how it is the same or enough proof that they ghosted.
You're right. Two people admitting they cheated is completely impassable as evidence. A first hand testimony like this would never fly in a court. -
I am going at this being unbaised as possible and I have seen all of the evidence against Lifeline and also compared it to the Carbon situation. I do not see how it is the same or enough proof that they ghosted.
Lets be real here, we cant say that they DID or DIDN'T ghost from what we have seen. All of this is still PLAUSIBLE though
Oh for those who want Carbon unbanned, I might as well start ghosting when I stream since it will go unpunished. That is the most moronic idea I have ever heard. If anyone cheats for any reason, they must face the punishment. Think before you speak please.
How am I being biased, what? I went through step by step comparing the two (and they even out, with more evidence to come that I'm not allowed to say yet), and highlighted the only section where I gave my opinion. What on Earth are you talking about? -
I am going at this being unbaised as possible and I have seen all of the evidence against Lifeline and also compared it to the Carbon situation. I do not see how it is the same or enough proof that they ghosted.
Lets be real here, we cant say that they DID or DIDN'T ghost from what we have seen. All of this is still PLAUSIBLE though
Oh for those who want Carbon unbanned, I might as well start ghosting when I stream since it will go unpunished. That is the most moronic idea I have ever heard. If anyone cheats for any reason, they must face the punishment. Think before you speak please.
Don't tell me "Think before you speak please". Did i insult you in any way? Didn't think so.
On topic, the reason people argue that carbon should be unbanned is because the lifeline evidence is similar to that of the carbon situation. So if nothing is done about lifeline than it seems reasonable to unban carbon, because if people didn't say anything AFTER carbon was banned the evidence would be just circumstantial, just like the case with lifeline now -
Ellustrial wrote: »How am I being biased, what? I went through step by step comparing the two (and they even out, with more evidence to come that I'm not allowed to say yet), and highlighted the only section where I gave my opinion. What on Earth are you talking about?
Then why are you pushing for them to be punished when the shown evidence isnt enough to justify the action?
BTW
I have a SS of my team bribing me and talking about ghosting for them. I mean its more evidence of them trying to ghost than what is going for Lifeline. Should we be banned from playing?
-
Then why are you pushing for them to be punished when the shown evidence isnt enough to justify the action?
Firstly, since you're going to be a ***** and say "hur hur here's a screenshot of me ghosting", I'll be one back. There's a difference between a clear, community-wide joke and serious accusations. You know that, so shut the **** up.
Secondly, I believe that the evidence is equal to that of the Carbon evidence. Carbon was banned. Ergo, LifeLine members should be. That's not a hard concept to grasp. -
Ellustrial wrote: »Firstly, since you're going to be a ***** and say "hur hur here's a screenshot of me ghosting", I'll be one back. There's a difference between a clear, community-wide joke and serious accusations. You know that, so shut the **** up.
Secondly, I believe that the evidence is equal to that of the Carbon evidence. Carbon was banned. Ergo, LifeLine members should be. That's not a hard concept to grasp.
But the Carbon and Lifeline issue isnt the same with more FACTUAL evidence coming from Carbon. Everything from ex members are "he said, she said" talk. If there were screen shots or an audio/video recording then it can be used as factual evidence. The video can mean MANY things. You just think of only 1 thing and ASSUME its about them ghosting without proper evidence to conclude it. -
But the Carbon and Lifeline issue isnt the same with more FACTUAL evidence coming from Carbon. Everything from ex members are "he said, she said" talk. The video can mean MANY things. You just think of only 1 thing and ASSUME its about them ghosting without proper evidence to conclude it.
This post in tandem with your other about me just making assumptions and being biased (lol) confirms my suspicion you didn't read the original post whatsoever.
You can't even argue that you did, because in the Op I say each video is flawed and arguably not valid. So don't even go down that route with me, kid.
So go read it.
Please, do.
You clearly think this post is somehow an opinion piece, when it's a factual breakdown of the situation. My "opinion" and "judgement" only factors into the last section.
So please, read the OP before posting again. Thanks. -
Part 2: The "Witnesses"
In the Carbon situation, DavidLive came out and admitted that he was ghosting.
In the LifeLine situation, Sketcheyes came out and admitted that they were ghosting.
This cant be comparable due to sketcheyes being an ex member and not a person in question. David was the person of interest as he was the main source of the issue. So that would leave David giving a more reliable source plus he admitted it. Sketcheyes wasnt in question so he could say whatever he wanted really.In the Carbon situation, Bertman and Brando came out and admitted that they were ghosting.
In the LifeLine situation, Doop came out and admitted that they were ghosting, but says his memory of it is unreliable since it was so long ago.
Please note the word "unreliable". If we want to conclude anything then you need to make sure your sources are 100% true.In the LifeLine situation, CK says that they had all agreed to do it, but he thought that they were joking (See Part 1: The Videos, and how Bert says "I was just joking").
Just because one person says "it was a joke" doesnt mean it can be the same for the other. That is what you call a misinterpretation.
Now if you really are being unbiased then why would you make this thread when Saidin has already went over the same stuff you have talked about? I can see that you believe Carbon should be unbanned if nothing happens to Lifeline. So we should just let anyone that breaks the rules go free?
Carbon got caught. There was more factual and believable evidence to punish them where there is not enough for Lifeline yet as you stated. -
Now if you really are being unbiased then why would you make this thread when Saidin has already went over the same stuff you have talked about? I can see that you believe Carbon should be unbanned if nothing happens to Lifeline. So we should just let anyone that breaks the rules go free?
Carbon got caught. There was more factual and believable evidence to punish them where there is not enough for Lifeline yet as you stated.
You pointed out the weak points in his post, there are points he made that are better and worse evidence than that of the carbon situation. They aren't the same obviously.
And saidin apparently hasn't, because when he made his post earlier he acted like its just going to be overlooked because it was in 2013....
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