Artisans™ Recruitment Thread!
Comments
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My "Apology"
I want to present my case before xgunkiller, Sushi, and the lieutenants. More specifically, this is intended for xgunkiller and Sushi, but I think that the lieutenants could benefit, even in a small way, from this.
What I say, I say in complete sincerity and honesty. Having no rank in the clan, I stand to gain nothing by lying, but everything IF I can convince you.
Before I begin I'm going to assume a few things-
1. That everyone here actually cares about Panda in one way or another. Otherwise why would they post here. Aside from all the joking, I will assume nobody here wants Panda to be worse off in any way.
2. That although everyone might not be legally adults yet, that we can still treat each other with respect and amiability, as is worthy of one human being to another. Basic human courtesy. I assume that we are all at least capable of such behavior.
3.That if it can be shown that someone's position on something is wrong, that they will concede it and not simply resort to childish argumentativeness. And no, I am not accusing or even implying that anyone has done this so far.
I hope that everyone can agree on the above suppositions, otherwise any further speech is worthless.
I will now list the major claims, both true and false, made by both Sushi and xgunkiller-
Sushi
"he was out of line and didn't ASK the clan LEADER"
Reply- This is true. As lieutenant, xgunkiller should have asked FIRST whether this was something that was acceptable. He should have set the right example to the other members of the clan by checking with his superior, an example which ALL lieutenants should maintain. However, xgunkiller has tried making amends for this- "I really understand why you are upset bro' I would be too" and "what I did is completely wrong. There is no doubt in my mind". It is clear that xgunkiller regrets acting the way he did. "I have apologized over ten times and they were all sincere". There is no reasonable reason to assume that he is lying in saying this.
"when you say I refuse to talk to you, that's just an insult and a lie"
Reply- Here, the key word is "insult". Sushi, you implied here that xgunkiller insulted you, that he made a deliberate attempt to "attack" you, to hurt you in some way. He did not make a deliberate attempt to do so. You quoted him saying "but since you won't talk to me". He stated right before this that he did not want to make a public disturbance of this issue, which, let's be honest, was a good and thoughtful idea on his part. You mistook his intentions Sushi- no harm was intended to your honor.
"I never said you "randomly deleted all the Raidcall info."
Reply- Xgunkiller quoted you saying that you said this, and at this point you used this to further assert that he was a liar; you denied having ever made this claim. Yet you did say, "then just one day out of the blue, I see that gunkiller has completely deleted all the information on it and replaced it with TS3 information". At this point this just becomes argument for arguments sake. Sure, you didn't say specifically that, but you said something very similar. Nothing can be solved if you let small matters like this get in the way.
"Nincat and I worked hard"
Reply- Sushi said this in reply to xgunkiller changing the RaidCall info. to TS3 info. This is a legitimate reason for being hurt, offended at xgunkiller. He undid work that Sushi worked on and further didn't let Sushi know. We have already discussed the second half of this- let's examine the first half. And here, xgunkiller, you behaved indecently- "If posting a simple message regarding raid-call is truly that difficult I suggest you look in the mirror and start asking yourself some questions." It is not for you to judge whether it was actually hard work or not. The point is that you did not have the right to undo Sushi's work. Now, you said that you saved it all- one of the first steps to reconstructing this friendship would be for you to return the message back to the way it was.
"You were now? You never said this before. Why is this only coming up now?"
"And you should know this, but you clearly do not."
"Maybe because they think you're a joke? Nobody takes you seriously. People find you very annoying and arrogant and boastful. If my lieutenants..."
Reply- I've grouped these together for a reason. Sushi, although you accuse xgunkiller of being the one who is lying, you on the other hand are excessively rude. All these comments listed(and more, these are only a few) demonstrate that you were almost always dismissive of what xgunkiller said. I don't mean that you didn't take the time to actually speak to him- that's clear. You simply didn't give his defense the credit it was due(eg. assuming things he said were automatically false). As you and everyone else knows, this is a public forum. Any member from our clan can see this. This sort of biting sarcasm is mean and unworthy of your position. In short, you're better than that. YOU are our leader, the one who we should look up to and respect. This sort of verbal mudslinging just isn't necessary, nor is it helpful. And it was everywhere in your arguments. But don't worry- xgunkiller isn't clean either. He behaved poorly in this regard as well.
So to summarize, Sushi's 2 main arguments for why xgunkiller deserved to be demoted and kicked out of the clan was for lying/ denying certain claims and for insulting/going against the leader of the clan. We know now that xgunkiller did not lie- at least not intentionally. At the very least we cannot say he has without further evidence. So I propose that we remove this argument. As to the other argument, this will be discussed after xgunkiller's analysis.
xgunkiller
"you didn't give me a warning...Ask any Leader, they would at least give the perpetrator one warning"
Reply- Xgunkiller, there are two errors in what you said. The first is that you presumed that you should get a warning after doing something wrong. Strictly speaking, as leader, Sushi can do what he wants. Although warning someone is generally considered a good thing, Sushi isn't bound to follow that. It's within his right's to do so and actually, it's perfectly just. You said at one point ,"I really do think this decision to demote me was unjust". Sushi replied "Oh really? You think being demoted is unfair?" Sushi probably inadvertently changed unjust to unfair, but there is a big difference. Sure, it would certainly seem unfair to you, xgunkiller, but if justice, giving to each his due, is enforced here then being demoted or even kicked is not unjust. The second error was in assuming that all Leaders act by giving out warnings. You can't know that, not with certainty. Also, that comment was ill placed as it implies that other Leaders' opinions matter more than Sushi's. As a member of the clan, your only concern is with Sushi's opinion. You may not agree with it, but you must at least respect it and obey it if required.
"Was it really that wrong? All I did was PAY MONEY waste TIme and set up a server so that everyone can be happy"
Reply- You said this later on once you and Sushi began arguing more heatedly. The answer is yes, it was wrong of you xgunkiller. I don't think anyone thinks your heart wasn't in the right place: even Sushi doesn't think so, "I understand he was only trying to help the clan". You tried, and that sort of initiative is something which I believe falls under the clan's code- "To enjoy the clan and everything it has to offer. To enforce the rulings of the leader and make sure everyone in the clan abides by the rules and doesn't cause trouble". "To enjoy the clan and everything it has to offer"- well whatever the clan has to offer it must offer through individual people. That is why good initiative falls under this; some people are leaders, naturally born, and they naturally try to improve whatever they are involved in. This sort of urge needs to be molded, guided. It may be exasperating, but it is necessary to have a well unified and lasting clan. Rather than take away a natural leaders access to doing anything, let him continue doing what he does, but temporarily keep at closer eye or a tighter leash(I'm not trying to be deprecating- move past the words and see my real meaning).
The only one causing the clan pain is you. Not all the Lt's you have chosen are suitable for the job and you know it. You turn a blind eye because they are your friends or the fact that they simply texted you a few times.
Reply- I think it is here that Sushi probably decided to stop communicating with xgunkiller. This is a direct attack to Sushi's leadership and his character. At this point, xgunkiller was already kicked- however we have examined the reasons for why this happen and as has been shown they are not grounded. So let's assume that xgunkiller was still in the clan when he said this. This would certainly be grounds for expulsion from the clan. This "pain" is originally the cause of xgunkiller's initiative, let's not forget. It's not entirely caused by him,: the 1st cause was his, and he and Sushi share responsibility for the accidental cause. The fact that some Lts. don't do as good a job as xgunkiller 1) may be true or not and 2) even if true, it is not for xgunkiller to judge who is not putting enough effort in. This is because xgunkiller is basing their effort on a relative scale according to HIM. Xgunkiller, if you notice that they are behaving badly or doing something wrong, kindly point it out to them, but don't chastise them for it. That's not your job. In a clan, the Leader sets the scale of effort and he judges his officers accordingly.Sushi, you were wrong though in saying "How dare you. All of my lieutenants care about this clan just as much as I do". You certainly may care and I think DO care tremendously, and the lieutenants as well, but you cannot just say this. No one can know for sure whether people care as much as you or anyone else. Xgunkiller, you could have said that you thought they might be lacking in effort according to you, but that's all. Sushi gets to make the final decisions, as he said himself. Finally, your last line there was totally unfounded. There is no way for you to know if they are friends or how close they are or whether Sushi has noticed or not or even if he has not said something to them privately about it. You can't know. Again, the problem was in supposing things were true without really thinking them over. And I'll admit that it's a hard thing to do when you are angry or tired- both of you seem to have choleric dispositions so that didn't help anything.
Final Thoughts
There were wrongs committed on both sides.
Xgunkiller, you stepped over your rank in building this group without telling the Leader ahead of time. You undid work done by the Leader without giving HIM a warning. You implied that he did not have a right to act the way he did, and further condemned his actions by trying to compare them(falsely) with other Leaders' opinions. You insulted his leadership and his character. You did not apologize for some of these things.
Sushi, you were brutishly overbearing and haughty in many of your replies. You often spoke without tact and in a manner not worthy of a Leader. You placed your own self(emotions) over the actual benefit of the clan. You helped further the rupture rather than fix it. You were plainly rude to xgunkiller. You did not apologize for some of these things.
That's all the bad stuff- both of you also behaved quite well and even gentlemanly at certain points.
Xgunkiller, you apologized for being out of line and not warning Sushi about your intentions. You admitted your mistakes and even tried to correct them in some way by sending a report, or planning to. You spoke for the most part without animosity towards Sushi.
Sushi, you were sympathetic with xgunkiller at first. You also admitted to your mistake in calling him a liar, something which is hard to do. You defended the actions of your officers when it was needed.
So where do we stand? Both of you have done some harm to the other. Xgunkiller has already apologized for his actions, but not yet for his words. Sushi, your actions were justified, in the strictest sense, but you have not apologized for your words. Why don't we do this- Both of you apologize for the thoughtless things you said. At this point, the charges of lying and insulting the clan leader goes away. All that remains is the original charge of xgunkiller not telling Sushi about his intentions and thereby undermining his authority. Sushi, you already you understood his intent. Although it is within justice on your part to keep him kicked from the clan, it would be good, even decent of you, to allow him back in. It would set a good example to the rest of the clan, and would also teach them that obedience is key in this clan. You would be bigger man for doing so. You could allow xgunkiller in, with the admonition that he is to never do this type of thing again. Xgunkiller, you ma not be re-promoted to your old rank, but that's an effect of your actions. Over time, if you continue to demonstrate the same zeal and good will towards the clan, Sushi may reinstate you as a lieutenant. This is not guaranteed, but is at least possible. This way, the clan stays unified, and even more strongly knit together. In the words of Winston Churchill, "When there is no enemy within, the enemies outside cannot hurt you."
That's option 1. Option 2- either both or one of you ignore what I have said and choose to pursue your own interests first. A division in the clan is made as people choose whether to stay or not. The best qualities in both of you never come out. Anger and resentment win out. You end up with two smaller, weaker clans, rather than one strong, unified clan.
I have tried convincing you with ethos and logos. I have made no appeal to pathos, to your emotions. If your emotions will move you to the right choice, then by all means play on them. Otherwise examine this only with your reason, as if you were a non-involved 3rd party. See which is best for everyone.
I now leave the fate of our clan in your hands, and hope that the right decision will be made. -
I want to present my case before xgunkiller, Sushi, and the lieutenants. More specifically, this is intended for xgunkiller and Sushi, but I think that the lieutenants could benefit, even in a small way, from this.
What I say, I say in complete sincerity and honesty. Having no rank in the clan, I stand to gain nothing by lying, but everything IF I can convince you.
Before I begin I'm going to assume a few things-
1. That everyone here actually cares about Panda in one way or another. Otherwise why would they post here. Aside from all the joking, I will assume nobody here wants Panda to be worse off in any way.
2. That although everyone might not be legally adults yet, that we can still treat each other with respect and amiability, as is worthy of one human being to another. Basic human courtesy. I assume that we are all at least capable of such behavior.
3.That if it can be shown that someone's position on something is wrong, that they will concede it and not simply resort to childish argumentativeness. And no, I am not accusing or even implying that anyone has done this so far.
I hope that everyone can agree on the above suppositions, otherwise any further speech is worthless.
I will now list the major claims, both true and false, made by both Sushi and xgunkiller-
Sushi
"he was out of line and didn't ASK the clan LEADER"
Reply- This is true. As lieutenant, xgunkiller should have asked FIRST whether this was something that was acceptable. He should have set the right example to the other members of the clan by checking with his superior, an example which ALL lieutenants should maintain. However, xgunkiller has tried making amends for this- "I really understand why you are upset bro' I would be too" and "what I did is completely wrong. There is no doubt in my mind". It is clear that xgunkiller regrets acting the way he did. "I have apologized over ten times and they were all sincere". There is no reasonable reason to assume that he is lying in saying this.
"when you say I refuse to talk to you, that's just an insult and a lie"
Reply- Here, the key word is "insult". Sushi, you implied here that xgunkiller insulted you, that he made a deliberate attempt to "attack" you, to hurt you in some way. He did not make a deliberate attempt to do so. You quoted him saying "but since you won't talk to me". He stated right before this that he did not want to make a public disturbance of this issue, which, let's be honest, was a good and thoughtful idea on his part. You mistook his intentions Sushi- no harm was intended to your honor.
"I never said you "randomly deleted all the Raidcall info."
Reply- Xgunkiller quoted you saying that you said this, and at this point you used this to further assert that he was a liar; you denied having ever made this claim. Yet you did say, "then just one day out of the blue, I see that gunkiller has completely deleted all the information on it and replaced it with TS3 information". At this point this just becomes argument for arguments sake. Sure, you didn't say specifically that, but you said something very similar. Nothing can be solved if you let small matters like this get in the way.
"Nincat and I worked hard"
Reply- Sushi said this in reply to xgunkiller changing the RaidCall info. to TS3 info. This is a legitimate reason for being hurt, offended at xgunkiller. He undid work that Sushi worked on and further didn't let Sushi know. We have already discussed the second half of this- let's examine the first half. And here, xgunkiller, you behaved indecently- "If posting a simple message regarding raid-call is truly that difficult I suggest you look in the mirror and start asking yourself some questions." It is not for you to judge whether it was actually hard work or not. The point is that you did not have the right to undo Sushi's work. Now, you said that you saved it all- one of the first steps to reconstructing this friendship would be for you to return the message back to the way it was.
"You were now? You never said this before. Why is this only coming up now?"
"And you should know this, but you clearly do not."
"Maybe because they think you're a joke? Nobody takes you seriously. People find you very annoying and arrogant and boastful. If my lieutenants..."
Reply- I've grouped these together for a reason. Sushi, although you accuse xgunkiller of being the one who is lying, you on the other hand are excessively rude. All these comments listed(and more, these are only a few) demonstrate that you were almost always dismissive of what xgunkiller said. I don't mean that you didn't take the time to actually speak to him- that's clear. You simply didn't give his defense the credit it was due(eg. assuming things he said were automatically false). As you and everyone else knows, this is a public forum. Any member from our clan can see this. This sort of biting sarcasm is mean and unworthy of your position. In short, you're better than that. YOU are our leader, the one who we should look up to and respect. This sort of verbal mudslinging just isn't necessary, nor is it helpful. And it was everywhere in your arguments. But don't worry- xgunkiller isn't clean either. He behaved poorly in this regard as well.
So to summarize, Sushi's 2 main arguments for why xgunkiller deserved to be demoted and kicked out of the clan was for lying/ denying certain claims and for insulting/going against the leader of the clan. We know now that xgunkiller did not lie- at least not intentionally. At the very least we cannot say he has without further evidence. So I propose that we remove this argument. As to the other argument, this will be discussed after xgunkiller's analysis.
xgunkiller
"you didn't give me a warning...Ask any Leader, they would at least give the perpetrator one warning"
Reply- Xgunkiller, there are two errors in what you said. The first is that you presumed that you should get a warning after doing something wrong. Strictly speaking, as leader, Sushi can do what he wants. Although warning someone is generally considered a good thing, Sushi isn't bound to follow that. It's within his right's to do so and actually, it's perfectly just. You said at one point ,"I really do think this decision to demote me was unjust". Sushi replied "Oh really? You think being demoted is unfair?" Sushi probably inadvertently changed unjust to unfair, but there is a big difference. Sure, it would certainly seem unfair to you, xgunkiller, but if justice, giving to each his due, is enforced here then being demoted or even kicked is not unjust. The second error was in assuming that all Leaders act by giving out warnings. You can't know that, not with certainty. Also, that comment was ill placed as it implies that other Leaders' opinions matter more than Sushi's. As a member of the clan, your only concern is with Sushi's opinion. You may not agree with it, but you must at least respect it and obey it if required.
"Was it really that wrong? All I did was PAY MONEY waste TIme and set up a server so that everyone can be happy"
Reply- You said this later on once you and Sushi began arguing more heatedly. The answer is yes, it was wrong of you xgunkiller. I don't think anyone thinks your heart wasn't in the right place: even Sushi doesn't think so, "I understand he was only trying to help the clan". You tried, and that sort of initiative is something which I believe falls under the clan's code- "To enjoy the clan and everything it has to offer. To enforce the rulings of the leader and make sure everyone in the clan abides by the rules and doesn't cause trouble". "To enjoy the clan and everything it has to offer"- well whatever the clan has to offer it must offer through individual people. That is why good initiative falls under this; some people are leaders, naturally born, and they naturally try to improve whatever they are involved in. This sort of urge needs to be molded, guided. It may be exasperating, but it is necessary to have a well unified and lasting clan. Rather than take away a natural leaders access to doing anything, let him continue doing what he does, but temporarily keep at closer eye or a tighter leash(I'm not trying to be deprecating- move past the words and see my real meaning).
The only one causing the clan pain is you. Not all the Lt's you have chosen are suitable for the job and you know it. You turn a blind eye because they are your friends or the fact that they simply texted you a few times.
Reply- I think it is here that Sushi probably decided to stop communicating with xgunkiller. This is a direct attack to Sushi's leadership and his character. At this point, xgunkiller was already kicked- however we have examined the reasons for why this happen and as has been shown they are not grounded. So let's assume that xgunkiller was still in the clan when he said this. This would certainly be grounds for expulsion from the clan. This "pain" is originally the cause of xgunkiller's initiative, let's not forget. It's not entirely caused by him,: the 1st cause was his, and he and Sushi share responsibility for the accidental cause. The fact that some Lts. don't do as good a job as xgunkiller 1) may be true or not and 2) even if true, it is not for xgunkiller to judge who is not putting enough effort in. This is because xgunkiller is basing their effort on a relative scale according to HIM. Xgunkiller, if you notice that they are behaving badly or doing something wrong, kindly point it out to them, but don't chastise them for it. That's not your job. In a clan, the Leader sets the scale of effort and he judges his officers accordingly.Sushi, you were wrong though in saying "How dare you. All of my lieutenants care about this clan just as much as I do". You certainly may care and I think DO care tremendously, and the lieutenants as well, but you cannot just say this. No one can know for sure whether people care as much as you or anyone else. Xgunkiller, you could have said that you thought they might be lacking in effort according to you, but that's all. Sushi gets to make the final decisions, as he said himself. Finally, your last line there was totally unfounded. There is no way for you to know if they are friends or how close they are or whether Sushi has noticed or not or even if he has not said something to them privately about it. You can't know. Again, the problem was in supposing things were true without really thinking them over. And I'll admit that it's a hard thing to do when you are angry or tired- both of you seem to have choleric dispositions so that didn't help anything.
Final Thoughts
There were wrongs committed on both sides.
Xgunkiller, you stepped over your rank in building this group without telling the Leader ahead of time. You undid work done by the Leader without giving HIM a warning. You implied that he did not have a right to act the way he did, and further condemned his actions by trying to compare them(falsely) with other Leaders' opinions. You insulted his leadership and his character. You did not apologize for some of these things.
Sushi, you were brutishly overbearing and haughty in many of your replies. You often spoke without tact and in a manner not worthy of a Leader. You placed your own self(emotions) over the actual benefit of the clan. You helped further the rupture rather than fix it. You were plainly rude to xgunkiller. You did not apologize for some of these things.
That's all the bad stuff- both of you also behaved quite well and even gentlemanly at certain points.
Xgunkiller, you apologized for being out of line and not warning Sushi about your intentions. You admitted your mistakes and even tried to correct them in some way by sending a report, or planning to. You spoke for the most part without animosity towards Sushi.
Sushi, you were sympathetic with xgunkiller at first. You also admitted to your mistake in calling him a liar, something which is hard to do. You defended the actions of your officers when it was needed.
So where do we stand? Both of you have done some harm to the other. Xgunkiller has already apologized for his actions, but not yet for his words. Sushi, your actions were justified, in the strictest sense, but you have not apologized for your words. Why don't we do this- Both of you apologize for the thoughtless things you said. At this point, the charges of lying and insulting the clan leader goes away. All that remains is the original charge of xgunkiller not telling Sushi about his intentions and thereby undermining his authority. Sushi, you already you understood his intent. Although it is within justice on your part to keep him kicked from the clan, it would be good, even decent of you, to allow him back in. It would set a good example to the rest of the clan, and would also teach them that obedience is key in this clan. You would be bigger man for doing so. You could allow xgunkiller in, with the admonition that he is to never do this type of thing again. Xgunkiller, you ma not be re-promoted to your old rank, but that's an effect of your actions. Over time, if you continue to demonstrate the same zeal and good will towards the clan, Sushi may reinstate you as a lieutenant. This is not guaranteed, but is at least possible. This way, the clan stays unified, and even more strongly knit together. In the words of Winston Churchill, "When there is no enemy within, the enemies outside cannot hurt you."
That's option 1. Option 2- either both or one of you ignore what I have said and choose to pursue your own interests first. A division in the clan is made as people choose whether to stay or not. The best qualities in both of you never come out. Anger and resentment win out. You end up with two smaller, weaker clans, rather than one strong, unified clan.
I have tried convincing you with ethos and logos. I have made no appeal to pathos, to your emotions. If your emotions will move you to the right choice, then by all means play on them. Otherwise examine this only with your reason, as if you were a non-involved 3rd party. See which is best for everyone.
I now leave the fate of our clan in your hands, and hope that the right decision will be made.
Thank-you for taking your time to write this.
I really do wish for your plan to happen. However, this is Sushi's clan and it is only in his power. To be honest, I was quite mad at first but I that quickly cooled down. I bear no ill judgement toward Sushi what so ever. I wanted this to be a private matter. Basically all I wanted to ask is "can I be promoted again?" Really didn't intend to heat things like this.
I'm sorry for all the pain and agony I've caused Sushi/other Lt's.
Conclusion : After reading all of this, I just thought it was really stupid. We made such minor problem into the worst possible situation.
Hopefully Sushi feels the same way : I sorta worded that wrong, it wasn't a "minor" problem but compared to what happened next, it sorta is.
Once again, thank-you for taking your time to view both sides. I think you should be a Judge
In short : I really just wish we forget about all of this and become one big happy family again
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Quote
I don't want to make this any longer than it has to be, so I'm going to try to make this concise.
First of all, thank you, Seal. I know how much work you put into that post, and I am grateful that you have done so. I really don't know what to say, and I am very thankful that I have such caring members that strive to make this clan better.
After reading everything you have written, I do feel your first solution would be the better one. You have allowed me understand why what I said was invalid and wrong, and I truly am sorry for it. I also apologize to you, gunkiller, for my harsh tone and disparagement. So, if gunkiller agrees with this, I will let him back into our clan. However, he will not be promoted again - atleast not until I can see he has grown and changed from this experience. -
I don't want to make this any longer than it has to be, so I'm going to try to make this concise.
First of all, thank you, Seal. I know how much work you put into that post, and I am grateful that you have done so. I really don't know what to say, and I am very thankful that I have such caring members that strive to make this clan better.
After reading everything you have written, I do feel your first solution would be the better one. You have allowed me understand why what I said was invalid and wrong, and I truly am sorry for it. I also apologize to you, gunkiller, for my harsh tone and disparagement. So, if gunkiller agrees with this, I will let him back into our clan. However, he will not be promoted again - atleast not until I can see he has grown and changed from this experience.
yay thx
and those pm i sent you. I truly mean them. About not being mad and all that
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SooperPickle wrote: »Except for the part where you make one mildly suggesting innuendo and get kicked without warning
GODLIKE
"Mildly" ,LOL.
If I hadn't quit I probably would have also been kicked for the same reason.
Although I doubt they have proof. -
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