Limited the range hacker can play
This is just an improvement of my previous idea:
http://forum.z8games.com/showthread.php?t=236853
The problem now is: Before hacker get reported and banned, they have enough time to ruin many games and make us think more than half of the community are hacking. The ban system is just too slow to protect the game experience. Vote system is too weak for current amount of hackers we need to face.
So my idea is to use white and black list to limit the damage range of hackers:
1. We are able to add a hacker to black list in game (through esc menu). The player will be automatically removed from whitelist/friendlist (if applicable).
2. Friends are in the whitelist automatically. Trusted clan to can also be added to the white list. It would be great if friends can share whitelist. But your blacklist would never be overrided.
3. Once hosting a room, we can have 4 choices to limit the players (the currently in game player will stay till the new game):
a. passworded
b. open to all
c. open to whitelist
d. open to anyone except those who in the black list. [default mode]
4. Selecting new host from old host's whitelist; If none in the room, select one based on the rating (see next); then the rank and honorable soldier tag; the last choice is to choose the player in the first slot.
5. Host is supposed to report a hacker or language abuse, etc when adding blacklist (to protect good players, but it is hard to know). The NUBMER/PERCENTAGE OF OFFICIALLY BANNED PLAYER IN HIS BLACKLIST [banned players is automatically removed from blacklist, but the number count] would be a good indicator for the capablity of the host to keep his room clean. This would be used as ROOM & HOST RATING and shown before each room.
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If z8 need profit for developing this, they can marketing it like bags, a player can spend zp to gain a longer whitelist or blacklist, or even the functionality to share whitelist between friends.
http://forum.z8games.com/showthread.php?t=236853
The problem now is: Before hacker get reported and banned, they have enough time to ruin many games and make us think more than half of the community are hacking. The ban system is just too slow to protect the game experience. Vote system is too weak for current amount of hackers we need to face.
So my idea is to use white and black list to limit the damage range of hackers:
1. We are able to add a hacker to black list in game (through esc menu). The player will be automatically removed from whitelist/friendlist (if applicable).
2. Friends are in the whitelist automatically. Trusted clan to can also be added to the white list. It would be great if friends can share whitelist. But your blacklist would never be overrided.
3. Once hosting a room, we can have 4 choices to limit the players (the currently in game player will stay till the new game):
a. passworded
b. open to all
c. open to whitelist
d. open to anyone except those who in the black list. [default mode]
4. Selecting new host from old host's whitelist; If none in the room, select one based on the rating (see next); then the rank and honorable soldier tag; the last choice is to choose the player in the first slot.
5. Host is supposed to report a hacker or language abuse, etc when adding blacklist (to protect good players, but it is hard to know). The NUBMER/PERCENTAGE OF OFFICIALLY BANNED PLAYER IN HIS BLACKLIST [banned players is automatically removed from blacklist, but the number count] would be a good indicator for the capablity of the host to keep his room clean. This would be used as ROOM & HOST RATING and shown before each room.
===========================
If z8 need profit for developing this, they can marketing it like bags, a player can spend zp to gain a longer whitelist or blacklist, or even the functionality to share whitelist between friends.
Comments
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I have read MOD 9's comment in another thread. He mentioned passworded room is enough. What I think is, if a player is not a forum, is he a hacker? If not, how could he enter passworded room. Another problem, is it possible a hacker enter the forum and get the password? Or just get the password from other player?
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BlackSmithSY wrote: »I have read MOD 9's comment in another thread. He mentioned passworded room is enough. What I think is, if a player is not a forum, is he a hacker? If not, how could he enter passworded room. Another problem, is it possible a hacker enter the forum and get the password? Or just get the password from other player?
You don't have to be a forumer to have a passworded room. Many players have other means to contact friends, not just whispers or ingame friend chat, but also they create Facebook groups or maybe play in the same Internet cafe.
I sometimes use Xfire to contact cf players outside of the forums. -
As you can see, the best way to play Crossfire is to avoid every public side of it. Make a locked/password protected room, use some other communication software like Skype or Ventrillo, etc ( to avoid crossfire's terrible chat and friend system, of course), and go at it.
Actually, just play in the shooting range. At least it's 100% free of hackers there and you have unlimited ammo. I think Single Player Mode is what it's come down to at this point. -
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You don't have to be a forumer to have a passworded room. Many players have other means to contact friends, not just whispers or ingame friend chat, but also they create Facebook groups or maybe play in the same Internet cafe.
I sometimes use Xfire to contact cf players outside of the forums.
Those fancy things.
I was simple in this idea. I just know someone I know haks, or just too annoying around. I just want them in my black list. Other players, if not hack, is welcome to the game.
The basic idea is, the room can be open to everyone, unless those falls into the hack group.
Also it is very easy to know which host is more fair by the percentage of player in his hacker blacklist get officially banned. This number is easy to calculate, and easy to know which room is more likely to under well control.
The passworded room, somehow, limited the game to a much smaller group. The blacklisted room is easier for players to join, and is very quick to adjust. A passworded room, once being intruded by hackers, would need longer to setup again (to give password to you friends, but you don't know which one in the chain released it to hackers).
Anyway, it is just my thought.nevertrolled wrote: »agree with this
It is easy to avoid this problem.
First lets see some numbers are useful to evaluate a host's behavior.
a. The number of players he blacklisted as cheating.
b. The number of players he blacklisted as cheating and get banned finally.
The ratio would reflect how well the host can tell who is hacking (as purposely kicking real pros would never get the player banned)
With this in you mind, the problem you mentioned is easy to be resolved.
1. Host is chosen from the players with better ratio.
2. When the host's does not achieve certain level, the host will be rechosen after each game.
-- at this point, if most players in the room have poor ratio, you can expect yourself get kicked soon.
3. Every entry in any blacklist has a life time (just record when it is added).
4. The system periodically check players' blacklist and do following -- remember these are just the data base operation and can be automated.
4.1. Remove the banned players in lists, increase blacklisted and banned count by 1
-- this will cause the ratio up
4.2. When a blacklisted players reaches its lifetime:
4.2.1 if no one reported about the account hacking, increase the blacklisted count by 2
--- A punishment for the players abuse the blacklist
4.2.2 if the account is reported and classified not hacking, increase the blacklist count by 1
--- The ratio goes down and it says the host is serious about kicking, but the ability to identify hacking need improve. Or it is just too hard to know the blacklisted account is hacking or not, because the report might be sent by others (but at least someone confused with that too).
4.2.3. If the account is reported and under investigation (not processed yet), extend the lifetime.
4.3 Blacklisted players would be removed from list if expires
5. Additionally, the blacklist size a player can own, is proportional to his experience and the ratio. Bad host can only have very limited ability to block players.
6. z8games can sell the extra slots for zp if they want to.BullishNiu wrote: »Bad idea. Legit players won't be able to join half the rooms because noobs will ban us for killing them.
Which is worse?
Now I have to leave almost any room in less than 1 mintues because of hackers. Someone told me that the honor system discourage us to do this, but I have no choice, either waste time there to provide the hackers a reason to enjoy this game, or just find the 1 room that can be played in. -
BullishNiu wrote: »Bad idea. Legit players won't be able to join half the rooms because noobs will ban us for killing them.
This pretty much.
All I can see from this very suggestion is unfairness. Instead of benefiting the legit players, it's and will become more harmful. -
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BlackSmithSY wrote: »Which point will cause unfairness, could you point out?
Point 1 and 2?
How can friends and clans be determined? Under-average players will simply fill up the room and ban/kick any of the legit average players. Why should there be black lists and white lists or clan/friend lists of any sort? There have already been a ton of those on the forums and I'll tell ya wut, they cause conflicts. There's no need for those. -
soCOLORFUL wrote: »Point 1 and 2?
How can friends and clans be determined? Under-average players will simply fill up the room and ban/kick any of the legit average players. Why should there be black lists and white lists or clan/friend lists of any sort? There have already been a ton of those on the forums and I'll tell ya wut, they cause conflicts. There's no need for those.
The whitelist only provide a way to limited the room only to your friends and clan members. This is something like the passworded room, but you need not to tell them the password.
The most effective part is the blacklist. Hackers simply able to leave and rejoin a room after game starts. With blacklist, they will have less place to play.
One of main issue a player get banned is because too many hackers, some times players just lose patent to investigate who is hacking, because they see too many in the game.
And remember, when you not vote kicking anyone, you might be voted kick by a hacker. I saw so many cases, hackers use the vote system delay to enlong their gaming time, and secure their slot by kicking those who still have vote permission.
And when I am host, sometimes I simply rage kick all teams for not bring up votes.
The last question, how often you see hackers in this game now?
My patch posted in this thread:
It is easy to avoid this problem.
First lets see some numbers are useful to evaluate a host's behavior.
a. The number of players he blacklisted as cheating.
b. The number of players he blacklisted as cheating and get banned finally.
The ratio would reflect how well the host can tell who is hacking (as purposely kicking real pros would never get the player banned)
With this in you mind, the problem you mentioned is easy to be resolved.
1. Host is chosen from the players with better ratio.
2. When the host's does not achieve certain level, the host will be rechosen after each game.
-- at this point, if most players in the room have poor ratio, you can expect yourself get kicked soon.
3. Every entry in any blacklist has a life time (just record when it is added).
4. The system periodically check players' blacklist and do following -- remember these are just the data base operation and can be automated.
4.1. Remove the banned players in lists, increase blacklisted and banned count by 1
-- this will cause the ratio up
4.2. When a blacklisted players reaches its lifetime:
4.2.1 if no one reported about the account hacking, increase the blacklisted count by 2
--- A punishment for the players abuse the blacklist
4.2.2 if the account is reported and classified not hacking, increase the blacklist count by 1
--- The ratio goes down and it says the host is serious about kicking, but the ability to identify hacking need improve. Or it is just too hard to know the blacklisted account is hacking or not, because the report might be sent by others (but at least someone confused with that too).
4.2.3. If the account is reported and under investigation (not processed yet), extend the lifetime.
4.3 Blacklisted players would be removed from list if expires
5. Additionally, the blacklist size a player can own, is proportional to his experience and the ratio. Bad host can only have very limited ability to block players.
6. z8games can sell the extra slots for zp if they want to. -
When thinking about a new system one needs to think about how it will be abused.
Right now the majority of ingame players are Brazilian/Egytians/Turks that hate NA and UK players, and this gives them a way to force NA and UK players out of the game.
These groups would simply add all players they don't like to the black list and over time there be less and less rooms available for NA and UK players to join. In the end this will result in forced segregation. Hackers would have more freedom in joining rooms then long time legit rule following players, the exact opposite of what you intended to do with this. -
When thinking about a new system one needs to think about how it will be abused.
Right now the majority of ingame players are Brazilian/Egytians/Turks that hate NA and UK players, and this gives them a way to force NA and UK players out of the game.
These groups would simply add all players they don't like to the black list and over time there be less and less rooms available for NA and UK players to join. In the end this will result in forced segregation. Hackers would have more freedom in joining rooms then long time legit rule following players, the exact opposite of what you intended to do with this.
Only if he is the host.
Even when he is the host, because he has some many blacklisted players that has not being banned, his ratio will go down.
And the room can choose new host after each game when the current host has bad ratio.
Finally the host would be someone that are willing to keep it clean and fair.
I can not say every hackers are from certain country or area. I had seen low pinger hacks, I don't think they are from Br or Eg, because their ping is under 30, while mine is only 50-70.
The main remedy to abusement of a system is to add the rating, we can rate players by the percentage of players in his blacklist finally banned. -
BlackSmithSY wrote: »Only if he is the host.
Even when he is the host, because he has some many blacklisted players that has not being banned, his ratio will go down.
And the room can choose new host after each game when the current host has bad ratio.
Finally the host would be someone that are willing to keep it clean and fair.
I can not say every hackers are from certain country or area. I had seen low pinger hacks, I don't think they are from Br or Eg, because their ping is under 30, while mine is only 50-70.
The main remedy to abusement of a system is to add the rating, we can rate players by the percentage of players in his blacklist finally banned.
I didn't say anything about them hacking, just they hate NA and UK players.
The follow up calculations for what happens to all black list players isn't a small thing, it tens of thousands of accounts constantly updating it and will take up lots of processing power. It has to check every entry on the list every time it has a set update or a entry is changed, multiply the number of entries by the number of players and you can quickly ended with a back logged server. This before taking in account synchronization with the report team and X-trap.
Adding those other complexities kills the servers well keeping it simple would leave it open to abuse. And all this effort does nothing to stop or slow down the problem in the first place. -
soCOLORFUL wrote: »^ That's a heck load of words there.
@Your question
I see a cheater every single game. Hack waves are starting to come in again as it seems.
But you don't get kicked every game, right?
Most of time I have to leave a room immediately because I saw top 3 slots in each team are occupied by 200+ pinger. So the point is, currently the most urgent issue to solve is the hacker, if the hacker can not removed in 3 months, you might find no one would kick you any more, because everyone else can make easy kills except you.
And moreover, with blacklist you might find yourself being blocked from half of the rooms for some time, but in a long run you will find more room are available, because those who just kick player for killing them would never submit a report, and can never get you banned if you are not a hacker. Their rating will be going down quickly, they will lose the host position when better rating players are there. It will be much less likely you will get blacklisted in these better rating players' blacklist, so you can enter the room again. -
I didn't say anything about them hacking, just they hate NA and UK players.
The follow up calculations for what happens to all black list players isn't a small thing, it tens of thousands of accounts constantly updating it and will take up lots of processing power. It has to check every entry on the list every time it has a set update or a entry is changed, multiply the number of entries by the number of players and you can quickly ended with a back logged server. This before taking in account synchronization with the report team and X-trap.
Adding those other complexities kills the servers well keeping it simple would leave it open to abuse. And all this effort does nothing to stop or slow down the problem in the first place.
Talking about calculation, it can be carried out every time a player login, then update his account.
Most of calculations are in the database server, not in the game server. When needed, a dedicated client can do the update to the database entry by entry.
There are nothing related to x-trap, the reporting system in under z8's control. X-trap should connect to the z8 database for auto ban.
Synchronization between review team and the system might be a problem, we know there are too much for them now and they might just lower the quality of reviewing.
But first thing first, I want to know if this system could work and create relatively low unfairness. -
BlackSmithSY wrote: »Talking about calculation, it can be carried out every time a player login, then update his account.
Most of calculations are in the database server, not in the game server. When needed, a dedicated client can do the update to the database entry by entry.
There are nothing related to x-trap, the reporting system in under z8's control. X-trap should connect to the z8 database for auto ban.
Synchronization between review team and the system might be a problem, we know there are too much for them now and they might just lower the quality of reviewing.
But first thing first, I want to know if this system could work and create relatively low unfairness.
The database server has to be accessed every time someone joins a room to see if they are black listed on it. It has to be updated every time someone is banned or added to a black list. It periodically needs to remove and update the removal of players black list as well as there score. This is all fine for small client sizes, but were talking tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of clients bombarding the database nearly constantly. You need a mainframe worthy of a bank to handle all this and Z8 doesn't have that kind of money to spend. -
The database server has to be accessed every time someone joins a room to see if they are black listed on it. It has to be updated every time someone is banned or added to a black list. It periodically needs to remove and update the removal of players black list as well as there score. This is all fine for small client sizes, but were talking tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of clients bombarding the database nearly constantly. You need a mainframe worthy of a bank to handle all this and Z8 doesn't have that kind of money to spend.
As with the review speed of support team, the update is not very frequent.
And the main point is, the blacklist is only effective when a player becomes host, and only when the host's rating is low, we need to calculate the rating of the players in the room (at this moment, it might have update).
Besides, even if there is something out of sync, which cause the players' blacklist is still has the old entries, and his rate is not changed, it would be very acceptable because these data would not change that quickly.
The majority of the updates can happen when a game ends, at this moment, room client starts to update the database about the kill and deaths, the update of player blacklist information can take place at this moment. The the new host is chosen. -
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Well, i think GMs should just ban IPs to prevent hackers. If GMs just ban accounts, then hackers will just create new accounts and hacck again. Besides, hackers are not TRUE players. All they do is hack, and destroys others moment of playing. It just ruin people's day to see hackers in every match or game.
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It is a good idea and I do get kicked a lot when I do play.
IDC if noobs blacklist me from every single room because they can't stop me making my own room.
I don't like the reporting bit though for a few reasons; I don't report hackers (waste of time) and I wouldn't just add hackers to the list as I would add kick abusers too. -
It is a good idea and I do get kicked a lot when I do play.
IDC if noobs blacklist me from every single room because they can't stop me making my own room.
I don't like the reporting bit though for a few reasons; I don't report hackers (waste of time) and I wouldn't just add hackers to the list as I would add kick abusers too.
What I think is:
you don't want to report, you can skip it, some other guy would just get the hack reported and finally get him banned. Your list would still be updated. That would make all the player blacklisted someone be responsible for the event.
And like the vote system, I think we can add players in the list with reason (language abuser, "f12 he is pro" typer, no attempt to kick hacker......) -- when you add hackers, you are suggested to be reported, otherwise, they might never be reported by anyone.
In the first stage, I think a personal blacklist is enought (no need to hook up with the report system), the idea can be improved later. -
Exiledking63 wrote: »This is true.
Tell me if you guys feel that there are more than 10% of room you can join? Nearly half of the rooms are passworded, and can you really find any open room free of hackers? I DON"T TRUST THE BULL**** THAT WE CAN IMPROVE THE SKILL TO FIGHT THE HACKERS.
Ask yourself, when be placed in a room with more than 2 hackers, what would you do?
WHY SO MANY SUCKERS JUST NEED TO JUMP OUT TO LET OTHER KNOW THEY GET KICKED BY A SYSTEM DESIGNED FOR HACKER. -
Blocked from room
I think you should tell your developers to build a system like this:
After the game is finished players add names of cheaters their block list. Lets say person a adds person b,c,d to his block list, person b,c,d cannot join person a's room. (if he hosts one)
When these people are added to the block list they are automatically added to Z8games's new database that collects information about the players being blocked and how much users blocked these players, for example :
Names ______________ Amount of times blocked _____any hack tool(s)
Player B / 102 / 1
Player D / 98 / 0
Player C / 63 / 0
As you can see player B's block count came up most, player B will now have the support team look up any reports with the matching name. Support finds a somone that has reported player b, replay is now reviewd and player B was caught using hacks and is now banned.
This will be a more time efficient way of finding real reported cheaters vs reports that are not real cheaters.- There should not be a limit to how much cheaters you can put on the block list
- You should build a copy and paste feature that only works for this system (makes it easier to put names down)
- Will block cheaters from joining our rooms
- They can get banned faster!
- Less trouble for the support team looking at false reports
What do you guys think?! -
why block when can perm ban with reporting?
Why not block the cheaters permanently from your rooms untill they are banned? Why not give support less trouble looking at real cheaters vs false reports?? Why not speed up the ban process??
Thanks for replying by the way
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why block when can perm ban with reporting?
Because you can not ban the hacker right away, and even when you ban a player tomorrow, we will have to face new hackers.
It seems you just don't totally understand why this idea is proposed again and again.
Player's experience is based on today's play. -
I think you should tell your developers to build a system like this:
After the game is finished players add names of cheaters their block list. Lets say person a adds person b,c,d to his block list, person b,c,d cannot join person a's room.
When these people are added to the block list they are automatically added to Z8games's new database that collects information about the players being blocked and how much users blocked these players, for example :
Names ______________ Amount of times blocked _____any hack tool(s)
Player B / 102 / 1
Player D / 98 / 0
Player C / 63 / 0
As you can see player B's block count came up most, player B will now have the support team look up any reports with the matching name. Support finds a somone that has reported player b, replay is now reviewd and player B was caught using hacks and is now banned.
This will be a more time efficient way of finding real reported cheaters vs reports that are not real cheaters.- There should not be a limit to how much cheaters you can put on the block list
- You should build a copy and paste feature that only works for this system (makes it easier to put names down)
- Will block cheaters from joining our rooms
- They can get banned faster!
- Less trouble for the support team looking at false reports
What do you guys think?!
I like the idea, I have posted the similar idea before.
My version was complex. But here is some modification and combination from mine.
1. To make it easy, a player's blacklist is only effective before logout, at the beginning stage, no need to save the list into database. Otherwise, this would looks too complex for them. Also, the list cannot be infinitely long, banned player must be removed.
2. Players can add hacker to list during game, but the list is only effective when you are a host.
2. When they are ready to save it into database, we can also count how many blacklisted player get finally banned, based on the percentage, we would know if a host is really good at hosting a game, and if the percentage can be shown as a color bar before each room, we can know whick room is better to join. Players will gain respect for what he has done. The number can also be used to weight vote, and assign vote limitation. Hosts who blacklisted lots of not banned players are more likely to kick ace for no reason (they either don't report it, and no other think it should be reported, or his reports never get approved.)
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