I think I have a solution to the hacking problem
Comments
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Anyone who has seen me play can testify to the fact that I'm a pretty good player, also my ping is 40. I would experience the problems many of you are bringing up. I should probably clarify, the main purpose of this would be to kick the blatant hackers(at least to begin with). I understand there are WAY to many hackers for z8 to have time to review EVERY report, thats why I'm saying keep a track of how many time Player X is reported, when it hits like 3 or something have z8 take a look at the submitted replays, after seeing Player X speed hacking/shooting through walls/etc PERMA ban him, then 2 day ban the players who refused to kick him. Yes one or 2 people might slip, but im talking consistently pressing f12 if the team keeps putting him up for kick, its not perfect but a start.
I appreciate the people who are adding to the thread. -
Aside from the fact that you could banned when you aren't actually hacking i.e. refuse to kick. (Which is perfectly legitimate, I never kick unless I am sure, no exceptions) Also, other legitimate reasons, on the phone, talking in chat, house on fire etc.
You are proposing that every vote kick be monitored and also who voted what and so on. Considering there is on average at least 2 vote kicks a game, that would amount to a huge amount of data. I'm not sure if this is possible. -
So what happens to the people who are unsure if the people really are hacking? Now I know there are obvious ones, but without a replay, some "hackers" look legit as well.
What happens to the people who don't kick the inconspicuous hacker?
I'm practically an indecisive meanie so this applies to me as well
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hacking
alot of crossfire users hack with an account that they dont use much.... many people that hack does not use their regular account and they just make noob account and hack with that... if z8 bans the hacking account, it wouldnt mean anything to the hacker because their main/regular account didnt get banned and their noob account gets banned.... i think z8 should find a solution to ban both the hacker's main account and their noob account... z8 should banned their IP or computer from playing crossfire to prevent this from happening..... i know several people who do this... -.- -
so, your solution is to massive report and ban every player with alot of reports even if they arent conclusive?cannonfadder wrote: »This will require work on the ENTIRE community not just the GM's but they'll have to step up their game as well. The first and most important step is that we must start reporting hackers. The next thing that has to happen is for the GM's to keep a tally of how many times 1 person was reported and/or votekicked within a certain timeframe, then based on the players games that day see who the players were in the match who either A f12'd or B refused to kick, and give all those players a 2 day ban. I know its not an elegant solution, because I dont know computer code but I can't imagine it would be that hard to come up with a program to do MOST of that for the GM's. I encourage you all to tweak my idea seeing as it would make the game SOOOO much better for the community as a whole, for those of you who took the time to read this thanks, I know theres a lot of lazy players. -
Red Flag Reports from Trusted Players
There are some good ideas here, and some good contra observations about the possible implications of implementing some of them, either cos they dispense with justice, are logistically too hard or sweep with too broad a brush.
It occurs to me we have two types of lamers:
[i don't like the term 'hackers' cos it acknowledges a technical skill they simply don't possess in the main - whereas lamers has been the online term for these kinds of people since the early days - wiki it ]
1 - Blatant wallers who kill teams from base, shoot through walls etc
2 - Subtler players with DND hacks (or not), but, who know how to conceal their advantage
The immediate massive problem is the first type.
On the other hand. There are a considerable number of well respected and honest players of higher rank (which does indicate a level of experience). How about we recognise this and 'appoint' some of these players as a hit squad to clean up the game. They would be like GameMods as opposed to Forum Mods.
They would still use the standard reporting system, but their reports would be red-flagged for priority examination by Z8 Support Staff/GameMasters and classified for context eg. deal with #1 problem first with an intensive 'working-bee'.
As these kinds of #1 'lamer' replays are very easy to assess - we could see some swift progress. #2 lamer requires a more intensive examination of replay so injustice isn't done to skilled players.
Then use MAC Address banning as IP banning doesn't really work on the internet as 99% of users have dynamic IP addresses.
If not MAC address, assign unique hashes to users. These would need to be formulated from a number of inputs (IP/MAC addy/email/System etc) - then the hash is banned, and the user permanently removed (or has at least made the account recycling much more challenging).
Something like this may assist the currently easy - ban, rotate account cycle. It would certainly assist in dealing a swift blow to the state of the game and does not require that Z8 increase staff numbers in the manner some suggestions seem to.
I think this would assist even without the MAC Addy or Hash system being implemented - which would clearly take some time as it requires code updates. -
There are some good ideas here, and some good contra observations about the possible implications of implementing some of them, either cos they dispense with justice, are logistically too hard or sweep with too broad a brush.
It occurs to me we have two types of lamers:
[i don't like the term 'hackers' cos it acknowledges a technical skill they simply don't possess in the main - whereas lamers has been the online term for these kinds of people since the early days - wiki it ]
1 - Blatant wallers who kill teams from base, shoot through walls etc
2 - Subtler players with DND hacks (or not), but, who know how to conceal their advantage
The immediate massive problem is the first type.
On the other hand. There are a considerable number of well respected and honest players of higher rank (which does indicate a level of experience). How about we recognise this and 'appoint' some of these players as a hit squad to clean up the game. They would be like GameMods as opposed to Forum Mods.
They would still use the standard reporting system, but their reports would be red-flagged for priority examination by Z8 Support Staff/GameMasters and classified for context eg. deal with #1 problem first with an intensive 'working-bee'.
As these kinds of #1 'lamer' replays are very easy to assess - we could see some swift progress. #2 lamer requires a more intensive examination of replay so injustice isn't done to skilled players.
Then use MAC Address banning as IP banning doesn't really work on the internet as 99% of users have dynamic IP addresses.
If not MAC address, assign unique hashes to users. These would need to be formulated from a number of inputs (IP/MAC addy/email/System etc) - then the hash is banned, and the user permanently removed (or has at least made the account recycling much more challenging).
Something like this may assist the currently easy - ban, rotate account cycle. It would certainly assist in dealing a swift blow to the state of the game and does not require that Z8 increase staff numbers in the manner some suggestions seem to.
I think this would assist even without the MAC Addy or Hash system being implemented - which would clearly take some time as it requires code updates.
This is the kind of deal I'm talking about, thank you for being productive. Those are solid ideas I wish z8 would take to heart, let's please keep the idea's flowing maybe z8 will recognize what's going on here and consider some of our ideas(or at the very least get their brain juices flowing) -
As far as I'm aware there is no system keep track of who's been kicked and who voted for the kickings.
The idea in the intial post of this thread, I've read nothing else, would require the implementation of a system to keep track of the kickings, not by necessarily keyloging the user though. Also, for the bans to be handed out for not kicking a hacker, not only would the hacker have to be convicted of hacking, they would have to then look up each individual user and hand out their ban based on the detection system for the votes taking up time and effort for other, more important matters.
However, there are idle players in games and they don't vote at all, so they would be banned for idling in a game? Hardly fair.
Honestly, I see this as a extreme, unrealistic step to solve any problem with unlegit players.
Any real solution to the problem would have to be the result of a change in the players' stance concerning hacking on a game, a change to one of disgust and resentment for those who (or would) partake in it. This would require a unified front against the hack developers and releasers, if they have no partakers in their hacks then over time it will become private usage rather than public. This kind of thing will never happen because people dislike working hard on a game, or anything, that is not vital to excel at.
Also, remember the ratio of legit players to the unlegit ones, the lather is far lower in number as opposed to the former. Accounts would be banned left and right, resulting in a lost of profit for the company, you don't make money when people don't play your game.
Edit: By "this kind of thing" I was referring to hacking/cheating/glitching in general on games, and real life events as well. -
How dumb. We shouldnt have to report. If we report then that means this is a fail system. And I get kicked every other match I play because of "mini ping" or something stupid. Sorry but your suggestion is a fail. Dont encourage z8 anymore than you did because then they will just recline back and let us do the dirty work of reporting. There is a better solution and I already posted it before but the forum moderators decided it needed to be closed and removed. That is what they do. They are worthless when it comes to this.
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Z8 did put up a list of banned players. But that did little to prevent the hacking problem other than self gratification to see hackers banned, but it has been removed and i dont think they will put it up again (probably because of the sheer number of hackers they are banning). Plus how does having your character name on that list lowers the morale of hackers if they can just make a new account and have a "new" life.treasurehunt wrote: »I say Z8 should post a list of players who have been banned. This should keep the morale of the fair gamers up and send a signal of what happens to those who cheat to both the cheaters and those who are considering doing it. -
I get votekicked about 4-5 times a day. Would that give me a 2 days ban? Just because I know how to snipe?
I also press f12 pretty often because too many of those who get kicked are just pros... So...
Lucky duck. I get kicked 10 times a day.
And I don't vote if I'm not convinced. I'll spectate when I die or I'll watch a replay. That's what it's for, after all. -
It would be nice to have the Game Masters and Moderators (selected Moderator in-Game) to receive 'tools' to kick/ban a player from the game itself and such. I remember Saidin talking about it in a WOGL interview in a once upon a time ago - Would be nice, as I would play public games and see players doing their thing, and a long side a player with advantages shooting through walls - in front of a couple of Moderators too.
It wouldn't help 100%, but it would help it enough to know 1-3 players are banned a DAY. -
Do mod actually play in game? Like i have never seen one unless i knew them and asked them to come on or it was an event
I truly don't know, I've seen only one Forum Mod in-game in the entire time i've played and they were a total jerk to me. On another thread there were Mods talking about playing in Echo 8, so basically they hide from the worst of it.
I feel like if there were more in-game Mods (WITH PERMANENT BANNING POWERS) it would decrease the hacks because the staff would be able to better communicate the types of problems seen in-game to the anti-cheat system. -
It would be nice to have the Game Masters and Moderators (selected Moderator in-Game) to receive 'tools' to kick/ban a player from the game itself and such. I remember Saidin talking about it in a WOGL interview in a once upon a time ago - Would be nice, as I would play public games and see players doing their thing, and a long side a player with advantages shooting through walls - in front of a couple of Moderators too.
It wouldn't help 100%, but it would help it enough to know 1-3 players are banned a DAY.
This is how it was in VCOD. I suggest choosing some select, trustworthy players and giving them unlimited spectating powers. If I'm in a room and someone is constantly hs'ing me, it's hard for me to remain objective and give the player the benefit of the doubt. If I'm spectating in a no-pressure setting, I'm able to think clearly enough and gather enough data to make an informed decision. After that, if you want to give them kicking power, then by all means let them clean up the game. I wouldn't make it a perm ban but a report and 5 hours of ban time would do a lot of good.
Another suggestion that I've wanted for a while was to remove EXP and items from accounts that are found cheating. A seven day ban doesn't mean as much as a loss of all your hard-earned guns and EXP. See how many hackers will be playing in a month when their rank is private and they have to play with m16's. -
Nasty_Maste wrote: »I truly don't know, I've seen only one Forum Mod in-game in the entire time i've played and they were a total jerk to me. On another thread there were Mods talking about playing in Echo 8, so basically they hide from the worst of it.
I feel like if there were more in-game Mods (WITH PERMANENT BANNING POWERS) it would decrease the hacks because the staff would be able to better communicate the types of problems seen in-game to the anti-cheat system.
For one, I'm the only moderator that plays Echo 8 most of the time. Mainly due to the fact that I have competitive origins. All of the other moderators play on random servers. I do play on other servers occasionally, but I don't have powers anyways, so I can't do anything that you guys can't.
Nobody "hides" from anything. I choose to play on that server because any other server / channel is much too easy. Echo 8 is the self-deemed competitive channel. That's where competitive players play. If you don't want to play there, that's your choice as well.
There aren't in game powers yet for moderators. I assure you once they come, we'll be out there looking for cheaters. There isn't confirmation yet that they will come.
As for the suggestion. People can be kicked for a majority of reasons. I once was kicked for not having a SPOP. Logs like that can be kept, but they wouldn't be 100% proof. The breaking point which determines if they are banned or not is the legitimate replay that is sent in. It takes a decent amount of time to review and come to a conclusion, which is why the process is slow. And no, hiring more people won't be easier, as they all will have to give opinions. -
There aren't in game powers yet for moderators. I assure you once they come, we'll be out there looking for cheaters. There isn't confirmation yet that they will come.
Good to know. Now to just convince whoever is in charge of in-game Mod powers that we are in favor of them. -
There are some good ideas here, and some good contra observations about the possible implications of implementing some of them, either cos they dispense with justice, are logistically too hard or sweep with too broad a brush.
It occurs to me we have two types of lamers:
[i don't like the term 'hackers' cos it acknowledges a technical skill they simply don't possess in the main - whereas lamers has been the online term for these kinds of people since the early days - wiki it ]
1 - Blatant wallers who kill teams from base, shoot through walls etc
2 - Subtler players with DND hacks (or not), but, who know how to conceal their advantage
The immediate massive problem is the first type.
On the other hand. There are a considerable number of well respected and honest players of higher rank (which does indicate a level of experience). How about we recognise this and 'appoint' some of these players as a hit squad to clean up the game. They would be like GameMods as opposed to Forum Mods.
They would still use the standard reporting system, but their reports would be red-flagged for priority examination by Z8 Support Staff/GameMasters and classified for context eg. deal with #1 problem first with an intensive 'working-bee'.
As these kinds of #1 'lamer' replays are very easy to assess - we could see some swift progress. #2 lamer requires a more intensive examination of replay so injustice isn't done to skilled players.
Then use MAC Address banning as IP banning doesn't really work on the internet as 99% of users have dynamic IP addresses.
If not MAC address, assign unique hashes to users. These would need to be formulated from a number of inputs (IP/MAC addy/email/System etc) - then the hash is banned, and the user permanently removed (or has at least made the account recycling much more challenging).
Something like this may assist the currently easy - ban, rotate account cycle. It would certainly assist in dealing a swift blow to the state of the game and does not require that Z8 increase staff numbers in the manner some suggestions seem to.
I think this would assist even without the MAC Addy or Hash system being implemented - which would clearly take some time as it requires code updates.
I agreed with you in my post above, with some other recommendations. Also, you probably already know that mac addresses can be changed just as easy as IP's, and it's one of the ways to switch your IP that people use anyway. But more security is better, regardless.
Here's a couple more suggestions that could make all the difference:
1. Add more vote kicks for TDM games. If people think that there will only be one hacker per team or that all eight people are going to kick, they're sadly mistaken. You need at LEAST two per person, especially because TDM is more infested than almost every other mode and people aren't paying attention as much.
2. Let room host specify players to be booted at game COMPLETION while the game is in session. No more people running out of the game at the end; if the host wants them gone, they'll be gone when the game is over. Should be similar to this: http://forum.z8games.com/showthread.php?t=137001 but for kicking instead. Btw I'm still waiting on that one xD
3. For the love of god, bring back replaytemp. -
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Instead of saying it's a fail idea, contribute something useful, you obviously didn't read through the entire thread, because I've explained this several times, its not a perfect solution, also if you don't have anything useful to contribute other than complaining your just compounding the problem instead of helping to alleviate it.
And thank you Hi, I'm glad to know that there is at least a mod looking at this thread and not deleting the thread, I'm assuming its because you understand this isn't meant to be a QQ thread but instead an idea thread. -
I get votekicked about 4-5 times a day. Would that give me a 2 days ban? Just because I know how to snipe?
I also press f12 pretty often because too many of those who get kicked are just pros... So...
Sometimes people look like theyre pro but they arent.. -
The simplest method to solve the problems with the game would be ping capped entrance servers when the SA servers come.
If you compare the the game at September 2010 and September 2011 you'd swear it was a different game.
In September 2010.
Hackers were very rare, 1 out of 50-100 games.
Hackers were kicked fast.
Kick abuse was very rare and rarely successful.
No one was hack accusing and insulting was uncommon.
September 2011.
1-4 hackers in 4 out of 5 games.
Hackers are rarely kicked.
Kick abuse is rampant.
Insults and hack accusing are the norm.
What changed? More and more high ping players were starting to play from last December to now. As the numbers of High ping players increased the number of hackers increased as well. When the high ping players reach to the point of outnumbering low pings they started kicking low ping players when ever they could as well as stopping to kick any hackers.
Most low ping players quit the game due to the number of hackers and kick abusers.
Most High ping players swear all or nearly all low pings hack.
This comes from back in December when the game was becoming popular with high pings.
Back then their ping was a massive disadvantage and made them very easy to beat.
Nearly none of the High ping players knew what ping is and rather then do any research to why they keep losing most just went strait to hack accusing and searching for hacks of their own. This mindset of blaming others for their failure and looking for the easy way has lead to most high ping players to hack accuse, kick abuse, and use hacks in order to win.
High ping players turned this game into what it is now.
High pings players are the source, and if we focus on other methods to solve the problem the problem will only keep coming back.
Remove high ping players and we get rid of hackers and kick abusers.
If it is done this game may return to what it was like in September 2010.
When it was nearly hack free and enjoyable to play.
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