[DISCUSSION]Old School GM
![[MOD]Polleus](https://forum.z8games.com/uploads/customavatars/7/navatar_8918107.gif){kind=avatar}
While I am not a prominent GM player, I would like to hear from GM supporters in the community about their opinions about "Old School GM" game play. While I understand that GM has been riddled with bugs over the past months, would it be POSSIBLE to play GM the simple way?
I've heard mixed reviews on such an approach. Some have said breath down is necessary with the heavy use of silenced weapons on GR side. So, why not play with an NESL type rule set (GP weapons only) and then not allow the breath down feature? Would that even it out? Basically, is it possible to break down all the "extra" stuff that has been added and play with a bare bones, simple rule set? --- essentially re-capturing the basic, unique game play of GM, without all the extra bells and whistles.
I'm sure many people will respond with a "GM is dead" type response, please try to refrain, I would appreciate it. I know there are still GM players around and I would like to hear their opinions without the thread getting lost in negative comments. Thanks.
I've heard mixed reviews on such an approach. Some have said breath down is necessary with the heavy use of silenced weapons on GR side. So, why not play with an NESL type rule set (GP weapons only) and then not allow the breath down feature? Would that even it out? Basically, is it possible to break down all the "extra" stuff that has been added and play with a bare bones, simple rule set? --- essentially re-capturing the basic, unique game play of GM, without all the extra bells and whistles.
I'm sure many people will respond with a "GM is dead" type response, please try to refrain, I would appreciate it. I know there are still GM players around and I would like to hear their opinions without the thread getting lost in negative comments. Thanks.
Comments
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Unfortunately Polleus, the issue with that is it depends on how 'old school' you are wanting it. as back then, breath was quieter, bunnyhopping was much harder than it was as well.
Even with no silenced weapons, a modern day GR will rock the socks off a BL if they don't have breath down, especially if they are only stuck with a knife as well.
Things would have to be changed up a bit in order for the mode to maintain balance. The drafts have met that balance in an isolated middle ground, but not much more than that.
Its a double edged sword that would require alot of work. Its a debated topic as to how to make it so that both teams are satisfied. -
[MOD]Talonblaze wrote: »Unfortunately Polleus, the issue with that is it depends on how 'old school' you are wanting it. as back then, breath was quieter, bunnyhopping was much harder than it was as well.
Even with no silenced weapons, a modern day GR will rock the socks off a BL if they don't have breath down, especially if they are only stuck with a knife as well.
Things would have to be changed up a bit in order for the mode to maintain balance. The drafts have met that balance in an isolated middle ground, but not much more than that.
Its a double edged sword that would require alot of work. Its a debated topic as to how to make it so that both teams are satisfied.
Well that would require a lot of experienced GM players to sit down with me and figure that out
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Well I'd say that both Knife and Axe should be allowed since this isn't something like SnD. Melee weapons are necessary and everyone knows how deadly it can be when you fail to kill your target at first attempt in either mode. (Which knife does very frequently these days).
Onto the next point. Stay to classic weapons choices. Silenced weapons give a MAJOR boost when you're playing competitively. GM players will know what I'm talking about. The ability to concentrate on you and only your targets breath takes a chunk out of what should be competitive. So let the battle sounds in, like the massive bursts of AK47 for example.
And breath down is seriously not necessary as people managed to kill before it arrived just fine and will be able to do so afterwards in a competitive game. No silenced weapons will make this easier as well. Anyone who says a modern day GR will knock the socks off someone who knows how to bhop (without breath down) at fast speed obviously hasn't played against the right people.
Also, while maps isn't a major concern. Metro sucks. Period.
Bringing back GM is defiantly possibly and attempts have been made however the delicate balance needs to set as how GM first had it back in the good old days.
I'd say have some experienced players try out a set of rules ingame (via playing to them) to see which one works best. Trail and error is the way to go. -
Yea there should be an NESL type rule set. The reason GM was fun back then was because there were no suppressed weapons until the MP5-Adv came out. GR's had to rely on sound, trying to listen to ghosts breathing to pinpoint their location so they would often stop shooting.
But now with suppressed guns, GR's are spraying the crap out of their guns, it makes things unfair for ghosts. Which is why there are so many 'perks' for sale (ZP of course) released exclusive for ghosts. So yes, I believe there should be a GP weapons only ruleset, that way it might have a chance to recapture what made GM. -
The odds of getting to a good gr player without breath down is very slim the team would have to be spraying alot to find an opportunity but even then some people have upgraded sound cards and expensive @ss headphones to hear you regardless. Then if you use breath down you completely cover your breath as long as you keep bunnyhoping and a good bl player with a 1 hit kill melee will wreck the room.
Unless your that guy ]H[elldeath, he can hear you across the map with or with ought breath down no joke. -
I think Talon pointed out the most important thing:
GR is overpowered when there is no breathdown. No weapon will change it. When there is breathdown BL is slightly overpowered. Maybe you could set up rules like "only 50% of all players may use breathdown per team". But that is really hard to control. Every player would have to provide screenshots. -
I think Talon pointed out the most important thing:
GR is overpowered when there is no breathdown. No weapon will change it. When there is breathdown BL is slightly overpowered. Maybe you could set up rules like "only 50% of all players may use breathdown per team". But that is really hard to control. Every player would have to provide screenshots.
Screenshots would be easy with a program called MOSS. It takes screenshots at pretty random intervals and automatically puts them in an encrypted ZIP archive so you can't edit the pictures. All you would have to do is upload the archive for verification. While it doesn't act as a definitive anti-cheat, I think it would work for something like that.
So, you are saying allow only 3 out of 5 to use breath down for example? To help balance it out? -
Well, iPhoenixi has a point. There are players who even excel without breathdown. But I counted one so far in 7 months of playing Crossfire.And breath down is seriously not necessary as people managed to kill before it arrived just fine and will be able to do so afterwards in a competitive game. No silenced weapons will make this easier as well. Anyone who says a modern day GR will knock the socks off someone who knows how to bhop (without breath down) at fast speed obviously hasn't played against the right people.
When there is a limit for breathdown per team I would say like 2 of 5. This would even allow some interesting strategies like diverting your enemy's attention with the louder ghosts and attacking with the silenced ones. My clan tried similar things in clan wars. But in this case 1 of 5 had no breathdown.
The weapon choice seems to be easy. Most players will agree that there will be no silenced guns and only knifes and axes as melee. -
[MOD]Polleus wrote: »Ghosty you are the baws.
thanks :P
well....I have played 2300 GM games and have won more then 60% of them with a kdr in GM of 2.3 LoL!
I have never used Breath Down ever. It is completely un nessacery and aswell steps down. My headset can hear a ghost from approx: 8 meters away my headset is a 120$ one though. >_<
tommys and m12s and scrubbinators can be annoying but if youre a "guru" in bunnyhopping you can do the unthinkables -
eh BL w/o Bdown is complete slaughter. No matter how good the person is on BL he would really have to work his butt off to pull the match, and if GR has a decent or good team BL is gone unless they just plant and stall. GR always has the upper hand even if they didn't have silenced weapons IF BL had no bdown w/ or w/o an axe or shovel.
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[MOD]Polleus wrote: »How about for a rough preliminary set:
No silenced weapons.
3 out of 5 BL players allowed breath down (Must be verified).
Knife and Axe only.
well that would kind of be a downer for GR sure 2 out of 5 would be easy to kill they'd still have to deal with the other 3 that have bdown BUT it would be harder to hear if their team starts to spray -
Since I've played many public and draft games, its not hard to tell what ticks and what doesn't in terms of balancing overall.
The 3/5 BD rule seems to be one i agree with to even out the GR's gp restriction.
Also note that while a BL can be good, its a rare instance that a sole BL gains an advantage without breath down against an experience PP without one of these factoring in;
1-Their weapon, shovels, katanas, kukris are reach weapons allowing a rushing ghost to close the gap twofold against a gr.
2-Abusing environmental noise, typically common in pubs as in most controlled scenes like drafts, spraying without merit is uncommon even with loud weapons.
3-Depends on current patches dynamics on the mode; breath sync while bhopping. Typically fluxates depending on the patch, where breath would be delayed on a bhopping ghost or in some cases silent, also providing that edge or the correct method of proper sync where it can be followed with their movement flawlessly.
However, the topic is about the rules and not about the games dynamics changing which is beyond one's control here.
Also note that although they are GP weapons many consider them frowned upon by the core GM players and draft runners, which would be entirely up to the ones making their own;
Scar Light
M12s
Thompson
M60
RPK
and possibly a few others, but as far as i know those are the top ones. -
i think it should be no bdown, no step down, no silenced weapons an knife and axe only.
Bdown is not needed jsut today i was told by a guy he couldnt even hear my breath... i dont use bdown i just hit while bhopping so its not needed anyway. If you are planning on making matches and have 3 of them wit hbdown i probably wouldnt play, afterall you said you wanna go back to basics. Also it depends if you decide to make a uk game to... i lag in american like hell so it would be pointless for me to play there.
As for silence guns i use them myself but dont see a problem with using a gp only gun if there is no bdown (im mainly gr only play as bl every now and again for a change) -
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Just test it without Bdown and see how it goes, Bdown is not needed aslong as you have a group of players that work together as a team something that you rarely see these days in GM as teams are always carried by 1 or 2 people
Edit: and if your gonna allow 3 out of 5 bl to use bdown then for GR the same rule should apply to silnced weapons. -
2/5 with bdown would be better, this way the GR who dont have bdown still will have to try to kill some one instead wait to see if the ones with bdown cant take 3 or more of the GR team.
I mean 3 good bhoppers with bdown against the GR's without silenced weapons would
not be so hard to take them down(the GR team).Just test it without Bdown and see how it goes, Bdown is not needed aslong as you have a group of players that work together as a team something that you rarely see these days in GM as teams are always carried by 1 or 2 people
see?the other 2 players without bdown could just at base or anywhere safe and wait. -
If you know how to bhop GR wont be able to stop you unless you fail.GM is still cool these days and silenced weaps doesn't affect that much IMO.
The headphones give a huge advantage to GR.If they have a good one he will be able to hear you from B site so let all the ghosts use the breathdown. -
(I didn't read all the posts in the thread.)
If you want a good GM this is what needs to be done in general(IMO of course):
- reverse things back as they were at the time they introduced the physics of the asian version so bhop became easier to perform. All the things done after that point were... lame. Especially the last one which made ghosts imba-visible.
- shovel was the 1st thing to ruin the GM. The next was breath down. They need to be removed. Axe is OK. -
with no breath down and gp only items, depending on the map:
lab is bl sided in a scrim, insanly gr sided in pubs
haken is gr sided
lost relic is heavily bl sided in a scrim, gr sided in a pub.
lab 2 id say is mostly gr sided, but i it mostly came out when i stoped playing gm.
it all depend on how bl will play, a bl team that goes for the kill will most likely lose, while a bl team that play it more of a snd style and go for the plant will most likely win. in gm it is insanly easy to rotate sites as bl.
it is still posible to kill a gr without him hearing you once if you dont have breath down, it mostly require you moving toward him as hes walking toward you and stabing him at the same time you bhop. most gm player dont have any game sense when their bl and thats the reason it tend to be gr sided, but personaly my bhop was horible back then ( its 10 times worst now!) and still could go positive against top players in scrims if i actualy try harded. -
I honestly love GM and would be amazed if you were able to capture the true essence of "old school" GM considering; Bhopping wasn't no were near as huge as it is today, the shovel makes BL able to hit a GR from that great a distance (same with Kukri), PPing is an absolute must once BD was introduced, Sound Down (the walking noise) makes it nearly impossible to hear BL running on the pipes in Lab, across metal, sand, or stone in Hakenkruz, or across the metal in Complex, and Fall damage down makes Hakenkruz a little bit harder as a ghost can Bhop off the edge straight down without losing nearly any HP.
I don't play Lost Relics cause it's extremely BL sided, imo.
Gun Choice for the GR side makes it harder to achieve this as well. There are the sprayers; RPK, RPK-C, RPK-G, M60, M60-A, and FN Minim(the newer MG). There are the "cheater" guns; M12s, Scar Light, Scar Light-RD, and the Dual Desperado.
Seems like I'm just ragging on all the newer things but to go back to then you would have to have a Time Machine, IMHO.
A Retro version could be achieved with
BL SIDE:
No shovel or kukri
BD to a select, RANDOM few in the match (choice made by an unbiased spectator)
Fall Damage Down not allowed
Sound Down allowed to those not allowed BD
GR SIDE:
Silenced weapons, same as BD
Scar Light, Scar Light-RD, M12s, RPK-C, RPK-G, M60-A, Super Kriss V, Thompson, and Dual Desperados not allowed.
Fall Damage Down not allowed
Really can't think of anything else. Just my opinion on the subject [MOD]Polleus. -
i don't think you'll ever find a perfect balance. different players are better at different sides, so peoples views get distorted. mix that with wild maps and it's a mightmare to find balance.
but i would try GP item shop items/guns only. equal grounds for all.
it's heart breaking seeing GM turning into a paycash-for-skill mode with axes/m4s/armour/fall reduction
let's go back to its roots. worth a try. but i do think breath down/fast plant/defuse/step down are legit and make it balanced with the knife.
GP only (not counting the scarl,m12, MGs, DD) -
[MOD]Polleus wrote: »While I am not a prominent GM player, I would like to hear from GM supporters in the community about their opinions about "Old School GM" game play. While I understand that GM has been riddled with bugs over the past months, would it be POSSIBLE to play GM the simple way?
I've heard mixed reviews on such an approach. Some have said breath down is necessary with the heavy use of silenced weapons on GR side. So, why not play with an NESL type rule set (GP weapons only) and then not allow the breath down feature? Would that even it out? Basically, is it possible to break down all the "extra" stuff that has been added and play with a bare bones, simple rule set? --- essentially re-capturing the basic, unique game play of GM, without all the extra bells and whistles.
I'm sure many people will respond with a "GM is dead" type response, please try to refrain, I would appreciate it. I know there are still GM players around and I would like to hear their opinions without the thread getting lost in negative comments. Thanks.Bunny hopping would still negate breath, though ghost would be reduced to using knifes as well. So no more shovel-pros hopping into range where they can simply enter there secondary attack mode and tank all damage done to get a kill.
So it might work.
My Suggestions: Ak-47 Custom FN Five-seveN Custom Glock-18 Adv. M110 s.a.s.s. M4A1 Masterkey MAC 10 Suppressed XM110 Spec-ops
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