[Discussion] eSportsmanship
This thread is, and will contain mature language. By the rules of the Z8Game Forums, I agree to the terms, but this disclaimer is to state this post will be grazing the lines and in case crossing them in cases of examples. If you cannot handle mature content in conversation, then skip over this read. -Thank You
This, a subject that's become misconstrued in it's time here in Cross Fire. What is the biggest gripe? Players alike feel the in-game, out of game, and manner in which players go about their approach and play of the game should be monitored and disallowed. I admit to my faults as an admin, watering down the bang factor of eSports. I understand the demographic of this game is still fairly young, but 50% of the entertainment in eSports is the verbal factor. I was sitting in a meeting, with a discussion on WCG player conduct and it hit me how far I'd traveled off the path of playing in the attitude and mannerism over the years. I as a player in competition have always had a very vocal approach. I was never shy to scream trash across the table, or dig at you personally for a mental overhand. THIS is 50% of the entertainment that gives eSports its' bang. You attend an event, you don't leave saying; "John Joe's string of frags was INSANE! And did you see how polite they were? Their kindness was DOPE!" Some of my favorite times in competition have been the conflicts. I understand there's a line that divides it all. But in MOST cases the words exchanged are just part of the game. We're competitors; WE TALK SH*T. 50% verbal exchange. 50% frag exchange. I for one know what I've done in shading this community from that factor. I admit....it's nonsense. In-game, if a player wants to unload on you in words you should be able to. I as a player in this game, if I want to say; "I'd quit if I were pz'd by me. I'd be embarrassed." I'm not the greatest player, so getting that bit of psychological edge on players KNOWING damn well they know I'm not the best [TSB: Team Short Bus] is key. Who enjoys getting taken out by a player of lesser ability? This is what brings enjoyment outside of the W/L column; This is what brings entertainment to the community. Granted some of it can be in ill spirit and of bad taste, but this is what has brought some of the biggest laughs, cheers and followings in this field. The sheer ignorance in the tone. Laughing in another players face. This is part of the game. This isn't High School Gym class. We're not building values here. We're here to compete for cash money and various other prizes. You lose as a player, if you don't want to say GG, you shouldn't have to. Frustration is evident. If you want to tbag a player, you should be able to. Build the field of good guys and bad guys. Characters make this scene what it is. Professionalism is nothing more than a term for conducting yourself in a professional manner. The term for professional is so vast in the form of attitude and manner you can't box it in one distinct area. Professionals talk sh*t too. They're not a grade of excellence. If you can't handle a healthy "F*CK YOU" than you shouldn't be mixing it up with animals. This isn't a church event.
I admit to faulting this aspect of the game in my time with WOGL and Cross Fire, but I stand behind this policies being reevaluated. Some of the greatest rivalries come with character feuds. Players like KC made their name for character reasons, never for their playing ability. And on the other side of the coin, you have players like malte[GR] known for his playing ability. If a player like bLitzed doesn't want to say GG, he shouldn't be held to a standard of ignorance. As with a player like doop. If he wants to talk trash on the forums, he shouldn't be held to a different standard. This is what builds the community in dialog. We're going to have trolling, it's evident. BUT THIS IS THE GAME. Standing from the outside now, I see its' value. I believe ALL parties should reconsider it, including the policies of Z8Games alike. It's like 'Free For All' conversation. The rules should be a bit more loose, but monitored closely. You open a few windows and the air moves easier. Discuss for the value of character(s) and entertainment in the competitive eSports side of NA/UK Cross Fire.
For the tl;dr crowd, the following points were made:
I strongly believe these points should be re-addressed and understood. Awareness makes things easier. You shouldn't take the verbal game from the competition. You shouldn't be penalized, shut down or receive infractions on the forums for the nature of this side of the game. Build disclaimers; Build an understanding. Competitive administrators won't have to worry so much about serving penalties for in-game conduct [in limits]. And moderators won't be quick to put a wedge in between a rivalry on the forums. We know there are trolls. Weed those out [it's clear in stone when someone is simply trolling]. But if say team A and team B are going back and forth, building the dialog for their next showing, there should be no repercussions. For both parties; Build the line that divides what is too far and what is nature in this side [competitive], but don't kill the value of the verbal side of eSports. I already did damage, let's rebuild the path....
This, a subject that's become misconstrued in it's time here in Cross Fire. What is the biggest gripe? Players alike feel the in-game, out of game, and manner in which players go about their approach and play of the game should be monitored and disallowed. I admit to my faults as an admin, watering down the bang factor of eSports. I understand the demographic of this game is still fairly young, but 50% of the entertainment in eSports is the verbal factor. I was sitting in a meeting, with a discussion on WCG player conduct and it hit me how far I'd traveled off the path of playing in the attitude and mannerism over the years. I as a player in competition have always had a very vocal approach. I was never shy to scream trash across the table, or dig at you personally for a mental overhand. THIS is 50% of the entertainment that gives eSports its' bang. You attend an event, you don't leave saying; "John Joe's string of frags was INSANE! And did you see how polite they were? Their kindness was DOPE!" Some of my favorite times in competition have been the conflicts. I understand there's a line that divides it all. But in MOST cases the words exchanged are just part of the game. We're competitors; WE TALK SH*T. 50% verbal exchange. 50% frag exchange. I for one know what I've done in shading this community from that factor. I admit....it's nonsense. In-game, if a player wants to unload on you in words you should be able to. I as a player in this game, if I want to say; "I'd quit if I were pz'd by me. I'd be embarrassed." I'm not the greatest player, so getting that bit of psychological edge on players KNOWING damn well they know I'm not the best [TSB: Team Short Bus] is key. Who enjoys getting taken out by a player of lesser ability? This is what brings enjoyment outside of the W/L column; This is what brings entertainment to the community. Granted some of it can be in ill spirit and of bad taste, but this is what has brought some of the biggest laughs, cheers and followings in this field. The sheer ignorance in the tone. Laughing in another players face. This is part of the game. This isn't High School Gym class. We're not building values here. We're here to compete for cash money and various other prizes. You lose as a player, if you don't want to say GG, you shouldn't have to. Frustration is evident. If you want to tbag a player, you should be able to. Build the field of good guys and bad guys. Characters make this scene what it is. Professionalism is nothing more than a term for conducting yourself in a professional manner. The term for professional is so vast in the form of attitude and manner you can't box it in one distinct area. Professionals talk sh*t too. They're not a grade of excellence. If you can't handle a healthy "F*CK YOU" than you shouldn't be mixing it up with animals. This isn't a church event.
I admit to faulting this aspect of the game in my time with WOGL and Cross Fire, but I stand behind this policies being reevaluated. Some of the greatest rivalries come with character feuds. Players like KC made their name for character reasons, never for their playing ability. And on the other side of the coin, you have players like malte[GR] known for his playing ability. If a player like bLitzed doesn't want to say GG, he shouldn't be held to a standard of ignorance. As with a player like doop. If he wants to talk trash on the forums, he shouldn't be held to a different standard. This is what builds the community in dialog. We're going to have trolling, it's evident. BUT THIS IS THE GAME. Standing from the outside now, I see its' value. I believe ALL parties should reconsider it, including the policies of Z8Games alike. It's like 'Free For All' conversation. The rules should be a bit more loose, but monitored closely. You open a few windows and the air moves easier. Discuss for the value of character(s) and entertainment in the competitive eSports side of NA/UK Cross Fire.
For the tl;dr crowd, the following points were made:
- Reevaluate the player conduct policies in-game [competitive rules].
- Discussing the freedom to say "Your trash!" in-game.
- Discussing the freedom to have rivalries [verbal] out-of-game [forums].
- What in-game/out-of-game banter does for the value of eSports entertainment.
I strongly believe these points should be re-addressed and understood. Awareness makes things easier. You shouldn't take the verbal game from the competition. You shouldn't be penalized, shut down or receive infractions on the forums for the nature of this side of the game. Build disclaimers; Build an understanding. Competitive administrators won't have to worry so much about serving penalties for in-game conduct [in limits]. And moderators won't be quick to put a wedge in between a rivalry on the forums. We know there are trolls. Weed those out [it's clear in stone when someone is simply trolling]. But if say team A and team B are going back and forth, building the dialog for their next showing, there should be no repercussions. For both parties; Build the line that divides what is too far and what is nature in this side [competitive], but don't kill the value of the verbal side of eSports. I already did damage, let's rebuild the path....
Comments
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I don't believe in sportsmanship in general.
I don't believe in congratulating someone that has beaten me.
I'm a winner (not in CF cause im not duh best) so I wouldn't congratulate someone after they beat me.
It's like telling someone good job after they beat you up physically. -
Sauce be saucin'tl;dr ?
EDIT: oh wow i was so lazy i didnt even see the tl;dr section.hillapse, DrixGod, wrote:. . . . .
I don't want to encourage physical violence. But in the sense yes. If you don't want to say GG, you shouldn't be held to a proper standard. If you feel it wasn't a good game, then you shouldn't be held to say it. You'd be SURPRISED how many teams NEVER say GG in higher tiered events. CF reference from WEM: Dragon AB never GG'd LifeLine. 'Let's not fake the funk'...I think this should be a sticky. +1 Very nice Bobby, as always, and do you work for WCG?
Going to the National Finals?
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A lack of sportsmanship leads to denial and ego when combined with a lack of maturity.
If the player is able to, after the game "state" has passed, look back and acknowledge what his opponent did right, how his opponent beat him, and how his opponent is more skilled than him in specific areas, then this is not an issue and I fully support.
The CF community on average cannot do this, which puts into effect my first statement. -
Completly agree , Like in real life some1 punch you and makes you K.O and after 30 min u get back and you say " good punch ? " Something is wrong .
UFC reference GSP vs Koscheck. All the trash talking that hyped up the fight and you end up with both showing great sportsmanship by praising one another.
Boxing reference Pacquiao vs Mosley. No bad blood, but either one claims that he will K.O. the other. You ended up with both showing great sportsmanship by praising one another.
I usually stay out of the trash talking, but if there's a guideline as to when you should or shouldn't, then Bobby's post is it. Concise and to the point, but will the younger generation actually adhere to it? -
A lack of sportsmanship leads to denial and ego when combined with a lack of maturity.
If the player is able to, after the game "state" has passed, look back and acknowledge what his opponent did right, how his opponent beat him, and how his opponent is more skilled than him in specific areas, then this is not an issue and I fully support.
The CF community on average cannot do this, which puts into effect my first statement.
Yes, you have a really intriguing point there. -
A lack of sportsmanship leads to denial and ego when combined with a lack of maturity.
If the player is able to, after the game "state" has passed, look back and acknowledge what his opponent did right, how his opponent beat him, and how his opponent is more skilled than him in specific areas, then this is not an issue and I fully support.
The CF community on average cannot do this, which puts into effect my first statement.
If you don't have an ego, your not human. NOBODY is a holy humble. This is eSports. Your fighting to prove your the best. If you've got to possess a swollen ego for confidence than that's you. Same with; If you can't handle a healthy "Your bad. Your trash. Quit this f*cking game. GO HOME!", then you need to grow yourself. It's the value of a match, whether it be in-game our out-of-game. -
BOBBYnoWOGL wrote: »If you don't have an ego, your not human. NOBODY is a holy humble. This is eSports. Your fighting to prove your the best. If you've got to possess a swollen ego for confidence than that's you. Same with; If you can't handle a healthy "Your bad. Your trash. Quit this f*cking game. GO HOME!", then you need to grow yourself. It's the value of a match, whether it be in-game our out-of-game.
My trash? xD
Whether or not someone can handle insults is irrelevant, I'm not sure why you're bringing it up.
Actually nothing you said had any relevance to what I posted, except for the ego bit, and even then that's off you using a different definition of "ego" than I was...
Not sure why you quoted my post xD -
JessicaBiel wrote: »I usually stay out of the trash talking, but if there's a guideline as to when you should or shouldn't, then Bobby's post is it. Concise and to the point, but will the younger generation actually adhere to it?
That's the tough part though, with adhering to it and finding the lines. What is too far, and what isn't? What is in-game related banter, apposed to IRL personal shots? You want to say enough to bring them down on their game, not bring them down in their personal life. You want them to feel like they want to RQ the match, not RQ on life. -
Some people let their pride and ego get in their way and cant handle a loss or a little **** talk. WE ALL KNOW WHO I AM REFERRING TO
It's that same ego talking sh*t when you throw stones. NO TEAM owes you a GG. if you get one, good. If not, keep it moving. You deserve the W when you win, not a players admiration or respect. -
I think its pathethic really, I think you can have a rivalry. Alex Ferguson vs Kenny Dalglish. Completely Man Utd vs Hardcore Liverpool. They hate each other, but they shake hands after a match. Its a short one, but there's respect. I trash-talk before some matches, get the other team unfocused or whatever, but after the match I'm back to my normal self. I've trash-talked to friends before, but always apoligised afterwards.
Tbh, grow up. Just grow up. If everyone acted like that in real life, what sort of place would you be living in. I don't know how ye were rared, but you take a beating if its given to you. And you respond. You respond by winning the next time. Not by ignoring them. If you loose, its your own fault. No one elses. -
I think its pathethic really, I think you can have a rivalry. Alex Ferguson vs Kenny Dalglish. Completely Man Utd vs Hardcore Liverpool. They hate each other, but they shake hands after a match. Its a short one, but there's respect. I trash-talk before some matches, get the other team unfocused or whatever, but after the match I'm back to my normal self. I've trash-talked to friends before, but always apoligised afterwards.
Tbh, grow up. Just grow up. If everyone acted like that in real life, what sort of place would you be living in. I don't know how ye were rared, but you take a beating if its given to you. And you respond. You respond by winning the next time. Not by ignoring them. If you loose, its your own fault. No one elses.
This is not life. And I feel you might be lost in translation of all of this. The root of all of this is NOT surrounded around GG. It's the ability for users to trash talk without being penalized or served infractions, both in-game and out-of-game. Telling someone to grow up because they don't say GG is obscured. Not saying GG isn't a sign of maturity; Or even how someone was raised. That's foolish to think of it like that. Your not raised on the morals and values of sportsmanship. Your taught it [shown how it should be done in polite form; Not stressed]. Being a sore loser is not NOT saying good game. If they went and refused the loss, that's poor sportsmanship. Not saying GG isn't unsportsmanlike. It's just polite to say it. But this goes back to the whole character piece I stated. Characters make the bang of eSports; Good & Bad. Unsportsmanlike behavior is foul conduct.... -
From personal experience in sports (not esports) when you lose and don't congratulate the opposing team it only fills you with the want to get better and stronger and what not.
Whereas to when you congrualate someone you feel no need to get better.
Hate and anger are strong emotions they make you want to get better.
I'm not saying to go and talk shiit I'm just saying don't say anything don't congratulate and get better. -
BOBBYnoWOGL wrote: »This is not life. And I feel you might be lost in translation of all of this. The root of all of this is NOT surrounded around GG. It's the ability for users to trash talk without being penalized or served infractions, both in-game and out-of-game. Telling someone to grow up because they don't say GG is obscured. Not saying GG isn't a sign of maturity; Or even how someone was raised. That's foolish to think of it like that. Your not raised on the morals and values of sportsmanship. Your taught it [shown how it should be done in polite form; Not stressed]. Being a sore loser is not NOT saying goodBOBBYnoWOGL wrote: »This is not life. And I feel you might be lost in translation of all of this. The root of all of this is NOT surrounded around GG. It's the ability for users to trash talk without being penalized or served infractions, both in-game and out-of-game. Telling someone to grow up because they don't say GG is obscured. Not saying GG isn't a sign of maturity; Or even how someone was raised. That's foolish to think of it like that. Your not raised on the morals and values of sportsmanship. Your taught it [shown how it should be done in polite form; Not stressed]. Being a sore loser is not NOT saying good game. If they went and refused the loss, that's sportsmanship. Not saying GG isn't unsportsmanlike. It's just polite to say it. But this goes back to the whole character piece I stated. Characters make the bang of eSports; Good & Bad. Unsportsmanlike behavior is foul conduct....
No it isnt. You don't have to shake their hands. But it is what it is. Roy Keane is one of the greatest characters i've ever seen. But every time, every time - United would be playing Newcastle [Shearer], Arsenal [Viera] or Liverpool [whichever langer it was] he would shake their hand. During the match he could just as fell break their leg on purpose, stamp on their face, headbutt them. Anything. Doesnt mean he wouldnt give a decent form of respect beforehand.
Tbh, I can't be arsed typing out a decent conversation. You're like idk, 20 something years old and you don't have the decency to say good game after a match. Just amazes me how differenently the structure of communities in countries are ran. The slap of a hurley would do you good. -
Thinking about it and looking back to all the sht that has happen, I agree. But don't disrespect the administrators.BOBBYnoWOGL wrote: »This thread is, and will contain mature language. By the rules of the Z8Game Forums, I agree to the terms, but this disclaimer is to state this post will be grazing the lines and in case crossing them in cases of examples. If you cannot handle mature content in conversation, then skip over this read. -Thank You
This, a subject that's become misconstrued in it's time here in Cross Fire. What is the biggest gripe? Players alike feel the in-game, out of game, and manner in which players go about their approach and play of the game should be monitored and disallowed. I admit to my faults as an admin, watering down the bang factor of eSports. I understand the demographic of this game is still fairly young, but 50% of the entertainment in eSports is the verbal factor. I was sitting in a meeting, with a discussion on WCG player conduct and it hit me how far I'd traveled off the path of playing in the attitude and mannerism over the years. I as a player in competition have always had a very vocal approach. I was never shy to scream trash across the table, or dig at you personally for a mental overhand. THIS is 50% of the entertainment that gives eSports its' bang. You attend an event, you don't leave saying; "John Joe's string of frags was INSANE! And did you see how polite they were? Their kindness was DOPE!" Some of my favorite times in competition have been the conflicts. I understand there's a line that divides it all. But in MOST cases the words exchanged are just part of the game. We're competitors; WE TALK SH*T. 50% verbal exchange. 50% frag exchange. I for one know what I've done in shading this community from that factor. I admit....it's nonsense. In-game, if a player wants to unload on you in words you should be able to. I as a player in this game, if I want to say; "I'd quit if I were pz'd by me. I'd be embarrassed." I'm not the greatest player, so getting that bit of psychological edge on players KNOWING damn well they know I'm not the best [TSB: Team Short Bus] is key. Who enjoys getting taken out by a player of lesser ability? This is what brings enjoyment outside of the W/L column; This is what brings entertainment to the community. Granted some of it can be in ill spirit and of bad taste, but this is what has brought some of the biggest laughs, cheers and followings in this field. The sheer ignorance in the tone. Laughing in another players face. This is part of the game. This isn't High School Gym class. We're not building values here. We're here to compete for cash money and various other prizes. You lose as a player, if you don't want to say GG, you shouldn't have to. Frustration is evident. If you want to tbag a player, you should be able to. Build the field of good guys and bad guys. Characters make this scene what it is. Professionalism is nothing more than a term for conducting yourself in a professional manner. The term for professional is so vast in the form of attitude and manner you can't box it in one distinct area. Professionals talk sh*t too. They're not a grade of excellence. If you can't handle a healthy "F*CK YOU" than you shouldn't be mixing it up with animals. This isn't a church event.
I admit to faulting this aspect of the game in my time with WOGL and Cross Fire, but I stand behind this policies being reevaluated. Some of the greatest rivalries come with character feuds. Players like KC made their name for character reasons, never for their playing ability. And on the other side of the coin, you have players like malte[GR] known for his playing ability. If a player like bLitzed doesn't want to say GG, he shouldn't be held to a standard of ignorance. As with a player like doop. If he wants to talk trash on the forums, he shouldn't be held to a different standard. This is what builds the community in dialog. We're going to have trolling, it's evident. BUT THIS IS THE GAME. Standing from the outside now, I see its' value. I believe ALL parties should reconsider it, including the policies of Z8Games alike. It's like 'Free For All' conversation. The rules should be a bit more loose, but monitored closely. You open a few windows and the air moves easier. Discuss for the value of character(s) and entertainment in the competitive eSports side of NA/UK Cross Fire.
For the tl;dr crowd, the following points were made:- Reevaluate the player conduct policies in-game [competitive rules].
- Discussing the freedom to say "Your trash!" in-game.
- Discussing the freedom to have rivalries [verbal] out-of-game [forums].
- What in-game/out-of-game banter does for the value of eSports entertainment.
I strongly believe these points should be re-addressed and understood. Awareness makes things easier. You shouldn't take the verbal game from the competition. You shouldn't be penalized, shut down or receive infractions on the forums for the nature of this side of the game. Build disclaimers; Build an understanding. Competitive administrators won't have to worry so much about serving penalties for in-game conduct [in limits]. And moderators won't be quick to put a wedge in between a rivalry on the forums. We know there are trolls. Weed those out [it's clear in stone when someone is simply trolling]. But if say team A and team B are going back and forth, building the dialog for their next showing, there should be no repercussions. For both parties; Build the line that divides what is too far and what is nature in this side [competitive], but don't kill the value of the verbal side of eSports. I already did damage, let's rebuild the path....
-
Tbh, I can't be arsed typing out a decent conversation. You're like idk, 20 something years old and you don't have the decency to say good game after a match. Just amazes me how differenently the structure of communities in countries are ran. The slap of a hurley would do you good.
I've never NOT said GG. I personally say GG win or lose. I'm one of the most respectful people you'll meet in the real world. I'm simply speaking on the case of people complaining when someone doesn't say GG, and the code of conduct in the rules of competitive Cross Fire. You trash talk in-game your served an infraction. You tbag someone in-game, your served an infraction. You trash talk on the your post is deleted, your served an infraction or the thread is closed. I'm simply speaking on the code of conduct. Why are we building this shade around 50% of what makes eSports what they are; Character value? WHY? -
Oh well, I dont think it really matters what you and me say really.
I know tons of people that talk a load of crap, and at the end of the day they have never won anything, will never win anything, never do feck all and still act like complete wankars.
Same kids are still going to talk to same crap, still pretending to be hardybucks. Posers..... -
I agree with the points that you have stated. Almost in every other competitive scene you see players trash talk. One reason why I would think admins disapprove trash talking in this game is because of how players in CrossFire have an average age of twelve and parents might log multiple complaints about the league not being professional for allowing children be exposed to vulgar languages. I personally wouldn't want to hear a chipmunk trash talk with their horrible 'diss' too, it sure lower my IQ. If trash talking are allowed in competitive CF, I'd say we should also have an age requirement of 18, everyone below that age requirement should get a TOS signed by their parents or legal guardians, ensuring that it is of their consent that their son/daughter will be exposed inappropriate conversations that might make them 'butthurt'.
-
taeyeoNNNNNN wrote: »I agree with the points that you have stated. Almost in every other competitive scene you see players trash talk. One reason why I would think admins disapprove trash talking in this game is because of how players in CrossFire have an average age of twelve and parents might log multiple complaints about the league not being professional for allowing children be exposed to vulgar languages. I personally wouldn't want to hear a chipmunk trash talk with their horrible 'diss' too, it sure lower my IQ. If trash talking are allowed in competitive CF, I'd say we should also have an age requirement of 18, everyone below that age requirement should get a TOS signed by their parents or legal guardians, ensuring that it is of their consent that their son/daughter will be exposed inappropriate conversations that might make them 'butthurt'.
shut up taeyon! You and I are both 13 -
-
taeyeoNNNNNN wrote: »I agree with the points that you have stated. Almost in every other competitive scene you see players trash talk. One reason why I would think admins disapprove trash talking in this game is because of how players in CrossFire have an average age of twelve and parents might log multiple complaints about the league not being professional for allowing children be exposed to vulgar languages. I personally wouldn't want to hear a chipmunk trash talk with their horrible 'diss' too, it sure lower my IQ. If trash talking are allowed in competitive CF, I'd say we should also have an age requirement of 18, everyone below that age requirement should get a TOS signed by their parents or legal guardians, ensuring that it is of their consent that their son/daughter will be exposed inappropriate conversations that might make them 'butthurt'.
Game said rated T for teens. If parents dont know what their 12 year old sons and daughers are doing on the computer then there is a problem
. OT: Its essentielly up to the respective teams as the the whole GG thing. Teams will just be based and characterised whether there more respectful (by saying GG) or not. On the trash talking issue, i belive the limit should be when it gets to personal aspects of peoples individual lives. Ive gotten to know quite a few people in the game, got their FB, phone numbers chat etc. But when you bring up somebody's personal life, thats when the ban hammer whould fall. Any trash talking or disputes about CF or about people's skill over the web should be allowed. If you cannot take an insult from someone you have never met and will mostly likely never meet, then how will you react to critisim in the real world?
srry for spelling mistakes lol dont really care ATM
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