Ghost Mode Discussion - KEEP IT CLEAN
Comments
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Dagnasty has pointed out some things to me over Xfire. I have to say it makes sense in a way.
Moving away from the weapons for a minute:
Could it be that GR is so heavily favored because a lot of the current BL players simply neglect the whole point of being BL? That purpose is to Plant & Protect. Seems that it is now an effort to "go out and kill GR", when you should be carefully planning how to plant the C4 and let GR come to you. Dagnasty seems to think that "buffing" the BL side with perks only makes that "Kill GR" mentality worse, so much that you aren't being careful and lose sight of your main purpose on BL, plant the bomb.
Could this really be a whole mentality issue versus a weapons balancing issue? Just throwing around discussion ideas here :-)[09:48] Dagnasty: like as a GR player, the thing I WANT you to do is to go after me and forget about C4
More clarified, we're trying to see if the mentality is the issue here where the first thought is, "I'm going out to kill a GR" versus "I need to work with my team to take the site and then focus on protecting the bomb (which leads to killing GR's)". -
[MOD]Polleus wrote: »Dagnasty has pointed out some things to me over Xfire. I have to say it makes sense in a way.
Moving away from the weapons for a minute:
Could it be that GR is so heavily favored because a lot of the current BL players simply neglect the whole point of being BL? That purpose is to Plant & Protect. Seems that it is now an effort to "go out and kill GR", when you should be carefully planning how to plant the C4 and let GR come to you. Dagnasty seems to think that "buffing" the BL side with perks only makes that "Kill GR" mentality worse, so much that you aren't being careful and lose sight of your main purpose on BL, plant the bomb.
You are right. No one ever thinks about the bomb site for the C4 to be planted. At every S&D game we always chose the side to plant and either rush it or slowly move towards it killing everyone in our way. -
I agree that this would be a huge issue. When I play to "go kill GR" it's ok against noobs to get a ton of kills, but against good GR I'm dead. When I play "plant and protect" I can hold a decent KD against anything.[MOD]Polleus wrote: »Dagnasty has pointed out some things to me over Xfire. I have to say it makes sense in a way.
Moving away from the weapons for a minute:
Could it be that GR is so heavily favored because a lot of the current BL players simply neglect the whole point of being BL? That purpose is to Plant & Protect. Seems that it is now an effort to "go out and kill GR", when you should be carefully planning how to plant the C4 and let GR come to you. Dagnasty seems to think that "buffing" the BL side with perks only makes that "Kill GR" mentality worse, so much that you aren't being careful and lose sight of your main purpose on BL, plant the bomb.
Could this really be a whole mentality issue versus a weapons balancing issue? Just throwing around discussion ideas here :-)
More clarified, we're trying to see if the mentality is the issue here where the first thought is, "I'm going out to kill a GR" versus "I need to work with my team to take the site and then focus on protecting the bomb (which leads to killing GR's)".
The two biggest tactical changes I think happen when planting instead of hunting are both killing two birds with one stone.
1. My style of play goes from trying to kill a GR as fast as possible, to staying alive and using a more gorilla warfare tactic of attack and retreat without actually killing.(This is especially needed when using a knife.) This in turn makes the GR use more ammo as they attempt to spray/pin me down.
2. My mindset goes from killing X number of players, to defending one item for a short period of time. Which also automatically changes the mindset of the GR from Kill the ghosts, to Kill ghosts AND defuse bomb. Complicating their efforts. -
I agree that this would be a huge issue. When I play to "go kill GR" it's ok against noobs to get a ton of kills, but against good GR I'm dead. When I play "plant and protect" I can hold a decent KD against anything.
The two biggest tactical changes I think happen when planting instead of hunting are both killing two birds with one stone.
1. My style of play goes from trying to kill a GR as fast as possible, to staying alive and using a more gorilla warfare tactic of attack and retreat without actually killing.(This is especially needed when using a knife.) This in turn makes the GR use more ammo as they attempt to spray/pin me down.
2. My mindset goes from killing X number of players, to defending one item for a short period of time. Which also automatically changes the mindset of the GR from Kill the ghosts, to Kill ghosts AND defuse bomb. Complicating their efforts.
Now with THAT said, let's look at a couple things:
Weapons balancing still MUST occur, but are we looking at it the wrong way? For example:
Taking out silenced weapons --- Everyone automatically says "Oh no, you can't do that. That is what makes the GR so efficient and work as a team, you can't do that. That would make loud noises extremely annoying and hinder GR as a team."
NOW, what if you looked at it this way:
Most GR competitive players here have some ability to pinpoint. Pinpointing is a HUGE factor to GR teams and is really what sets apart the advantages between BL and GR. Taking out silenced weapons is not really an attempt to promote teamwork on the GR side, but to balance the issue that GR teams have such an easy time doing, pinpointing. Increasing the volume levels on GR side would probably make for a harder time to pinpoint, especially when you're in a gun fight after the bomb has been planted. Would it not? GR's would still be able to pinpoint JUST as effectively, they would just have to take more care in handling their weapons.
With the above being said, would it now be okay to take away the perks of Breath Down/Footsteps down from BL? Now that we have increased volume levels, when firing, on the GR side?
With the mentality approach, we want to take away the perks of BL, so that we can promote a "Plant and Protect" approach, instead of giving them the tools to go out frag hunting. Makes sense or no? -
[MOD]Polleus wrote: »Now with THAT said, let's look at a couple things:
Weapons balancing still MUST occur, but are we looking at it the wrong way? For example:
Taking out silenced weapons --- Everyone automatically says "Oh no, you can't do that. That is what makes the GR so efficient and work as a team, you can't do that. That would make loud noises extremely annoying and hinder GR as a team."
NOW, what if you looked at it this way:
Most GR competitive players here have some ability to pinpoint. Pinpointing is a HUGE factor to GR teams and is really what sets apart the advantages between BL and GR. Taking out silenced weapons is not really an attempt to promote teamwork on the GR side, but to balance the issue that GR teams have such an easy time doing, pinpointing. Increasing the volume levels on GR side would probably make for a harder time to pinpoint, especially when you're in a gun fight after the bomb has been planted. Would it not? GR's would still be able to pinpoint JUST as effectively, they would just have to take more care in handling their weapons.
With the above being said, would it now be okay to take away the perks of Breath Down/Footsteps down from BL? Now that we have increased volume levels, when firing, on the GR side?
With the mentality approach, we want to take away the perks of BL, so that we can promote a "Plant and Protect" approach, instead of giving them the tools to go out frag hunting. Makes sense or no?
This is exactly what I've been thinking all along and why I stand firm on the fact we don't need extra props to balance the mode.
If we take it to the bare minimum of items, we force that tactical thinking into play, and it really does become team based and strategic. -
This is exactly what I've been thinking all along and why I stand firm on the fact we don't need extra props to balance the mode.
If we take it to the bare minimum of items, we force that tactical thinking into play, and it really does become team based and strategic.
Exactly. I know for a FACT the "New Age" GM teams would fight this discussion tooth and nail, simply because they are used to the perks on both BL and GR.
I wonder if a basic rule set were stuck out for a few drafts, if teams would acclimate and adjust their mentality (mainly on BL), or if they would just continue to attempt the "Kill GR, Frag Hunt" approach and just continue losing rounds. -
The biggest problem with the argument on making it "balanced" is there really isn't any way to in that kind of mindset. GR will ALWAYS have the bigger killing advantage simple because they have guns and BL have melee. It's completely a matter of how you play on both sides, which should be unique to both.
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First, I must admit I was away from the Ghost Mode scene ever since I've been kicked from Pan[TH]erS.
I'm voting for the Breath Down item being AVAILABLE to use, regardless if you ban silenced weapons or not. I even joined a several GM pubs today, and ghosts' breath loudness seems to be still the same, just like nearly a year ago when I moved to S&D.
Ghosts without BD item are hopeless. Pinpointing with decent / good / amazing headphones becomes stupidly easy. Just make sure none of your teammates will use an SG-552 or AK-47, and you're good to go against BD, even without a silencer on your rifle. But then again, axe would have to be banned.
So here's my personal suggestion for the balanced gameplay.
Two options- Ban axe, allow breath down
- Ban breath down, allow axe
I've personally never seen fraghunting in GhostMode, unless it was a public game. I don't know how does it look like nowadays. When we ran strats in Pan[TH]erS (in scrims of course), first thing was to get a kill in the bombsite we were going to, then plant the bomb. Rules in Pan[TH]erS were strict, things like fraghunting were absolutely a no-go, unless you didn't give a single fuck about staying in the clan. -
I think the way it is now is well balanced BUT if they removed silenced weapons and breath down/step down it will be the same.
BL are invisible, they have the bomb, they choose where/when to plant it.
GR have guns, pinpoint ability.
Isn´t it balanced enough?
Still, BL has a small advantage over the GR. -
1g0tN0skillZ wrote: »I think the way it is now is well balanced BUT if they removed silenced weapons and breath down/step down it will be the same.
BL are invisible, they have the bomb, they choose where/when to plant it.
GR have guns, pinpoint ability.
Isn´t it balanced enough?
Still, BL has a small advantage over the GR.
Exactly.
BL NEEDS to have a slight advantage over GR.
Simple fact: Melee vs. Bullets
GR has bullets + pinpointing ability.
BL has melee + bunnyhopping + transparency.
Isn't that enough? -
1g0tN0skillZ wrote: »I think the way it is now is well balanced BUT if they removed silenced weapons and breath down/step down it will be the same.
BL are invisible, they have the bomb, they choose where/when to plant it.
GR have guns, pinpoint ability.
Isn´t it balanced enough?
Still, BL has a small advantage over the GR.
In theory, maybe, but when playing competitively, things play out a bit differently.
There are more pro GR players than pro BL players. BL aren't completely invisible, and the silenced weapons make it possible for players to spray and pinpoint.
Silenced weapons, breath down, etc. are useful for pubs where people aren't focusing on teamwork, but way back, when most of us were still fetuses, GM was the life and blood of crossfire, and it was more about working as a team and less about getting a KDR of 2+. Ghost Mode was one of the things that made crossfire special.
I'm not an avid Ghost mode player, so I can't speak for everyone, but most of the people you'll find in this thread have been playing GM since 2009, and most of them agree that the addition of items and silenced weapons have affected how things. -
IMO I think that keeping the teams as equal to each other is probably the best.
If one side is allowed to use ZP items, so should the other.
If one side is allowed to use GP items (Breath Down for BL), so should the other (Nade Expansion for GR)
The rules shouldn't favor one side, because you'll have to play as both sides anyways. -
[MOD]Polleus wrote: »Exactly.
BL NEEDS to have a slight advantage over GR.
Simple fact: Melee vs. Bullets
GR has bullets + pinpointing ability.
BL has melee + bunnyhopping + transparency.
Isn't that enough?
meehhh hate ghost mode... It su.cks..
you ear something and then a guy appears with a shovel in the other side of the room and banG YOUR DEAD.....how did he hit me from the other side ? I don't know.. there is something wrong in gm.. -
i don't think it will matter whether or not silenced weapons are banned.... b/c there are a lot of people out there who would just keep the volume up loud either way and will still have the "i don't care if it hurts my ears" mentality and still get the frags..
but here is my weird recommendation:
-no BD
-no reduced fall
-no reduced footstep sounds
-Knife only (no axe)
-p228 only - 13 bullets + 1shot hs at close range should be good enough? idk (deagle 2 powerful imo)
/my2cents -
It's not enough.[MOD]Polleus wrote: »Exactly.
BL NEEDS to have a slight advantage over GR.
Simple fact: Melee vs. Bullets
GR has bullets + pinpointing ability.
BL has melee + bunnyhopping + transparency.
Isn't that enough?
Not really. One reason it's becoming more unfair is that some people can equalize their sound to make ghost breaths louder through programs. Silencers also give GR a huge advantage. Why? You can spray constantly without disrupting yourself or anyone else, if you choose to, instead of having to worry about endangering yourself and your team by making it difficult to hear ghosts from your spray.
Taking out silenced weapons would make teamwork more important, because if you choose to spray, it can actually affect you and everyone else around you. It also makes it much harder for BL to trick GR, as when you're spraying with a non-silenced gun, it's more difficult to hear what's around you. If you're spraying with a silenced gun...well your whole team can join in if they have silenced guns, and everybody can hear just fine.
Good BL players are becoming extinct for numerous reasons as well. On GR, it's so easy to kill hordes BL players that don't know how to play Ghost Mode, because there's NO TUTORIAL! Considering one of the only pieces of information BL players are given when they start is: "If you do not move, you will be completely invisible", playing on GR is a nice way for people (that want high kdrs that are of no benefit to them) to get ridiculously high ghost mode kdrs.
Truly, I think that there should be a small ghost mode tutorial on bunnyhopping, that covers how to hop above all. As the pro BL players die out, there's nobody to replace them, as many BL players will be of the opinion that GR is hacking, after all, they were told that if they didn't move, they would be completely invisible. -
For me, I like playing GM in Pub matches on the BL side. If you learn how to time your hit, BHop and you know the map well, BL can win. In a pub match a few days ago with some people. I went 16/0 in he first 9 rounds than ended 18/3. I don't think BL is too hard. The only way I die is because is stupidity in choices, sprayers or pin pointers that I don't see. I think the only way to even it out is too maybe decrease GR HP to like 75-80 hp and reduce the power of the gun by 30-60% depending on the gun. Because the shotguns are really jacked. But the BL side can only use Knifes. Maybe this way weakening the GR side can help the BL but its still pretty easy to kill the ghosts.
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Actually it is... Ever saw a full team of people with m60's spraying around for no reason killing nothing? YEP they all die in matter of seconds. Because they are stupid.Just for information:
Gr w/o silenced weapons isn't a huge nerf
That is all. -
golani___i3u wrote: »First, I must admit I was away from the Ghost Mode scene ever since I've been kicked from Pan[TH]erS.
I'm voting for the Breath Down item being AVAILABLE to use, regardless if you ban silenced weapons or not. I even joined a several GM pubs today, and ghosts' breath loudness seems to be still the same, just like nearly a year ago when I moved to S&D.
Ghosts without BD item are hopeless. Pinpointing with decent / good / amazing headphones becomes stupidly easy. Just make sure none of your teammates will use an SG-552 or AK-47, and you're good to go against BD, even without a silencer on your rifle. But then again, axe would have to be banned.
So here's my personal suggestion for the balanced gameplay.
Two options- Ban axe, allow breath down
- Ban breath down, allow axe
I've personally never seen fraghunting in GhostMode, unless it was a public game. I don't know how does it look like nowadays. When we ran strats in Pan[TH]erS (in scrims of course), first thing was to get a kill in the bombsite we were going to, then plant the bomb. Rules in Pan[TH]erS were strict, things like fraghunting were absolutely a no-go, unless you didn't give a single fuck about staying in the clan.
There the Uber -
My two cents:
GR will almost always have more kills than the BL team due to pinpointing and the fact that they have guns instead of melee weapons. This doesn't necessarily translate to more wins than the BL side, though.
BL can win more rounds than the GR side if they work together as a team and protect the bomb. If you get a group of good BL players that are willing to give up their kills and instead protect the bomb, then they should win more rounds than the GR side. It's a lot harder for the GR side to defuse the bomb when they have to think about defusing it and also worry about the remaining BL players who aren't aggressively going after them.
Mentally, I think it's much harder to be a good BL player since it involves more teamwork and patience compared to being a GR player. At least that's my opinion. -
If you bhop pro and do it alot , like ALOT and ghosts play smart like going in groups of 2-3 to catch 1 GR is simple.
So go in groups and try to find a place where is just a GR guy alone. Then bhop all to him / surrender and stuff. he will hear more breaths and he will be confused letting him to use the last option : spray - In this time his team will not hear alot if he hasn't a silenced gun and your rest 2 ally can go and get at least 1 kill , while you kill this guy. After all this you are in a 5v3 situation. Planting the bomb and winning the round will be easy from here.
![[MOD]Polleus](https://forum.z8games.com/uploads/customavatars/7/navatar_8918107.gif){kind=avatar}
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