Ghost Mode Discussion - KEEP IT CLEAN
![[MOD]Polleus](https://forum.z8games.com/uploads/customavatars/7/navatar_8918107.gif){kind=avatar}
I run a GM draft once a week and even with breath down allowed, the GR side usually wins.
we are not talking about individual talent, competitively GR always wins, unless it is an uneven match up.
H3adShoot3r wrote: »If BL wins a scrim then it isn't a serious scrim. And if you never lose then you play trash teams all day long, which doesnt count as a serious scrim. Please leave this thread.
this man speaks the truth, except on some rare occasions, BL wins. (enigma has taken 5-4 against invisible on BL) (then we trashed them on GR)
Now, with these comments in mind:
WHY does GR have such an advantage in drafts / scrims / anything not named a pub? I do remember the times when BL and GR were more balanced and as said above in drafts, even with breath down, GR still wins. Now, think hard before responding. I am simply going off of what I've heard from several GM players.
In a draft or scrim where the level of teams is a bit higher, do you think that the silenced weapons of GR allows them to play to an advantage over BL? Throw out all other parts of the rules right now and just focus on silenced weapons.
- Silenced weapons takes away the penalty of hindering your team mates from hearing well, thus giving GR the ability to spray MUCH more often.
- Shots don't have to be well placed simply because of the above reason. You don't have to worry about not being able to hear yourself because of the dampened sound.
- With the above being said, silenced weapons tend to lean towards individual game play and relying on your own skill more so than relying on your team, so it becomes 5 individuals playing instead of one team.
Specifying BL side for those who need clarification:
- No armor
- Knife, Axe only
Comments
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[MOD]Polleus wrote: »I should have specified.
BL: No shovels, no armor in above situation.
Also, with the breath down, its been said that even with it, GR still wins easily.
still, as long as they can bhop and have kukri, they'll each get at least 1 kill. -
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BL has always been more difficult to learn from the start and most tend to go GR as a result, hackers in the past also discouraged people to practice a lot as BL. IMO yes taking out silenced weapons would help a lot, but another reason is there simply isn't as many good BL players out there as there are GR.
I think breaking down the rules to the bare minimum of items, so there is literally no props, would make this mode as balanced as it can get. -
Maybe it's just the fact GR has so much more equipment available now. New smoke grenades, explosive grenades, weapons (silenced and not silenced), and maybe in general it's just easier for GR.
No exclusive weapons or advantages for being a Ghost now.
New melee weapons, GR-* BL-*
New guns, GR++ BL-
New Grenades (lethal and nonlethal), GR+ BL-
*if it doesn't help the team, it hurts them
We need more exclusive BL weapons while playing Ghost Mode. BD and Noise Down aren't enough. -
My usual tactic in Ghost Mode is to equip a shotgun and take out any BL that's stupid enough to engage me. Not very effective against b-hoppers or breath-down ghosts, but there aren't many competent ones in pubs and I usually stick to a group. Haven't used suppressed weapons ever, and I don't think my 'bullet-probing' techniques would change either.
I have some moderate experience in pinpointing, but now that I'm not using headphones anymore, I can only tell that a ghost is close-by and not an exact location. -
[MOD]Polleus wrote: »Now, just humor me for a bit. Take out silenced weapons on GR side. Don't worry about BL rules right now. What happens? Do your tactics change? Does your approach to placing your shots change? Don't you think you'd rely more on your team mates rather than individuality? I remember GM used to be about team tactics and before silenced weapons came into play, I remember it was a little more balanced. As you all said, GR is VERY heavy sided and there has GOT to be a reason. I'm not saying that pinpointing is NOT a big cause, but not everyone can pinpoint. Does it help veteran teams? Certainly. But there has to be another reason why GR is so heavily favored. Comments?
Agree its all about individual's possibly one of the reasons why BL is so bad no one works as a team anymore and from what I've seen a lot them tend to rush GR on their own which normally ends up being 2-3 gr vs 1 bl and if they can pin point well then the bl player has no chance. -
I don't play GM so much anymore because of the hackers. I usually like playing as GR, so yes, I do not support the idea of keeping BHOP in the game. It is not realistic at all and should be considered a bug, not a technique. If BHOP should get removed, change the invisibility mode a little. For example, on shift walking, the ghost should be almost totally invisible.
And for GR.....just ban the m12 from ghost mode. -
*Comments withheld*.....I don't play GM so much anymore because of the hackers. I usually like playing as GR, so yes, I do not support the idea of keeping BHOP in the game. It is not realistic at all and should be considered a bug, not a technique. If BHOP should get removed, change the invisibility mode a little. For example, on shift walking, the ghost should be almost totally invisible.
And for GR.....just ban the m12 from ghost mode. -
Lol I remember the forumer's rooms I did where that was the rules in that case, was damn fun!AceShooting wrote: »Only allow GR to shoot with pistols, and BL play with knifes.
Actually it was quite even actually. The power of the deagle/anaconda was balanced out being usually 2 shots to compare to the knife. Along with the knife's limited reach. Also GR couldn't spray with their limited pistol ammo.Bad idea,BL will win everytime,
I think that BL and Gr are very balanced, it depends on the playerRawrJafrikan wrote: »Because Guns > Knifes.
The fundamental problem falls to this simple to understand concept. If using Ninja type warfare worked, people would have kept it.
As ridiculous as this statment sounds, this is it.
Haha guns > knives? You clearly haven't seen a lagger kill you at what you think should be gun range. XD You forget in this game, getting chopped off at the knees at high ground is easier than taking the high ground for the supposed 'elevation advantage'.
Also ninjas in warefare didn't have cloaking technology with bunnyhopping. XD -
GR is just the easier side to play. BL demands constant perfection in Bhop and aim because you're not gonna get a second strike if you mess up. As a GR you can just camp in a hard to reach spot and spray at the slightest hint of sound, while BL has to work their butts off to get the kill.
Being the easier side to play, more people gravitate towards it because it gives them the impression that they're good. If no one plays BL then of course it's going to be a poor side. -
Here's my two cents:
Regarding the quotations:
I honestly could not agree more. In any serious scrimmage, Gr always wins with or without breathdown, assuming both teams are "good". In the ESL ghost cup (or at least the ones I participated in), Gr won 9-2 or 9-3 every time, regardless of the team playing.
@the guy who said: "Pro bhopers will beat the crap out of GRs. You just can't hear and see them."
Wrong. The best bhoppers will inevitably be sprayed down (randomly or after he gets a kill). If you match up the best bl'ers and the best gr'ers in the game. Gr WILL win.
Regarding the suggestions:
I honestly think it wouldn't change the style of play or our tactics in anyway. We're still going to spray the common spots and we're still going to be able to hear the ghosts.
There aren't any true tactics in ghostmode, its holding down a spot and rotating when the bomb's down or where there's a hole. There isn't a whole lot of real strategy to ghost mode; whoever can get the early picks usually ends up winning (Gr usually is able to do this).
Every shot you can land on a ghost psychologically stuns them and helps your team mates pick them off later. On the other hand if a ghost misses a swing or lands 40-70 with an axe, he/she is going to be dead or severely lit up. This is why in a 2v4 scenario in favor of Gr, the Gr clutch is do-able where as if it were 2-4 for the ghosts, it is near impossible to win.
Again, all these assumptions are with no perks except the axe and bdown (No spop; no armor).
Decreasing breath wouldn't help at all; I honestly think that the best solution is Talon's suggestion of "holding breath" (http://forum.z8games.com/showthread.php?t=151855)
in a such a way where the breath is louder when it is released, and the time ghosts can hold their breath is perfect. This might be too drastic a change to add in just a patch, but it might actually be just what bl needs to win.
In conclusion: I don't think disallowing silenced guns would change anything too much. Game mechanics for bl might be just what gm needs.
Sorry for any typos. -
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Pro bhopers will beat the crap out of GRs. You just can't hear and see them.
Nobody can bhop perfectly during a whole game, there are always time when you will fail a hop, and suffer the consequence of getting some bullets in your face.
And spray can still get pro hopers
GR wins more often, because after a few rounds, the BL tend to use the same (more or less) strategy, and there isn't a lot of different options in BL, especially against an organized team.
Plus, the weaknesses of the GR's defense are easy to deal with, and the next round it's not a weakness anymore. -
i've always been better on the BL side but now that i have a better headset, i can hear the ghosts better and am decent at pinpointing :P
my only problem is if the ghost has breath down, dont really care about the footsteps, but hearing the ghost only from like 5 feet away is ridiculous, by the time you can hear them, they'll just swing their axe/shovel and your dead.
unless I turn my headphones up louder, but then again, everyone sprays in pub matches which make my ears hurt... -
[MOD]Talonblaze wrote: »Haha guns > knives? You clearly haven't seen a lagger kill you at what you think should be gun range. XD You forget in this game, getting chopped off at the knees at high ground is easier than taking the high ground for the supposed 'elevation advantage'.
Also ninjas in warefare didn't have cloaking technology with bunnyhopping. XD
Yes they did/do.
The ninja has fooled you which is exactly what he anticipated. Remember Talon, the ninja is always 4 steps ahead of you. -
Well i know i have put in a lot of input, even before my post on this thread, but here i go:
This, sir, is false.Pro bhopers will beat the crap out of GRs. You just can't hear and see them.
I realize that you have the unfortunate handicap of being a BR (not racism, they have a harder time getting in competitive games), but competitively BL is extremely hard.I think its easly win like a BL,
u can bhop, even with no breath down i think Bl have more chance to win...
But if you think of it, anything stronger than the axe is Nooby. The only thing that can be improved upon is range, hit radius, and timing. Shovel focused on range, Kukri focused on hit radius (the degree of reg of the horizontal stab), and the Katana focused on timing. anything more than the axe is OP.IudiceScar wrote: »Maybe it's just the fact GR has so much more equipment available now. New smoke grenades, explosive grenades, weapons (silenced and not silenced), and maybe in general it's just easier for GR.
No exclusive weapons or advantages for being a Ghost now.
New melee weapons, GR-* BL-*
New guns, GR++ BL-
New Grenades (lethal and nonlethal), GR+ BL-
*if it doesn't help the team, it hurts them
We need more exclusive BL weapons while playing Ghost Mode. BD and Noise Down aren't enough.
This is not how competitive GM works, in competitive GM you need a perfect PP and perfect Bhop the succeed. just invest in a good headset, invest in ZP for perm axe and m4 silver, and practice updiesector21 wrote: »My usual tactic in Ghost Mode is to equip a shotgun and take out any BL that's stupid enough to engage me. Not very effective against b-hoppers or breath-down ghosts, but there aren't many competent ones in pubs and I usually stick to a group. Haven't used suppressed weapons ever, and I don't think my 'bullet-probing' techniques would change either.
I have some moderate experience in pinpointing, but now that I'm not using headphones anymore, I can only tell that a ghost is close-by and not an exact location.
.
Talon's idea is good, but it may get a little dull to have that as a full cup, but it would be hella fun for a cast.Bad idea,BL will win everytime,
I think that BL and Gr are very balanced, it depends on the player
It depends on the team, IMO.
Not to troll, but thats the dumbest suggestion ever. If the bhop is removed, then pinpointing would have to be removed. then it would just become a camping mode. that would probably make me and all competitive GM players either quit GM or quit CF.I don't play GM so much anymore because of the hackers. I usually like playing as GR, so yes, I do not support the idea of keeping BHOP in the game. It is not realistic at all and should be considered a bug, not a technique. If BHOP should get removed, change the invisibility mode a little. For example, on shift walking, the ghost should be almost totally invisible.
And for GR.....just ban the m12 from ghost mode.
Practice up, or invest in a better headset. GM is, and will always be, pay to win. Not to say that you cant do well for free, but you would need to practice a lot, and be plain old lucky to do well without proper gear.i've always been better on the BL side but now that i have a better headset, i can hear the ghosts better and am decent at pinpointing :P
my only problem is if the ghost has breath down, dont really care about the footsteps, but hearing the ghost only from like 5 feet away is ridiculous, by the time you can hear them, they'll just swing their axe/shovel and your dead.
unless I turn my headphones up louder, but then again, everyone sprays in pub matches which make my ears hurt...
My personal opinion:
It is almost more fun the way GM is kind of one sided. It makes BL involve a **** load of strats, so GR attempts to counteract those strats, while BL tries to evade the enemies' headsets' detection. This makes a fast pace guessing game for GR, and fast paced dodge-bullet game for BL. this is all just IMO. -
Here's my two cents:....
You was the only one who actually read what Polleus wrote until now ;/.
I admire Polleus for keep trying set up rules with this the GM community,
I mean most of them think their opnions is the right one because they are good Gm'ers
and if someone disagree its because they are bad Gm'ers.
Come on is not hard to just try the rules and then see if will change anything.
You guys wanna a new GM tourny? help Polleus to find what is best for
both teams BL and GR!
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