Things that need to be said and heard - Part 1
Comments
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I think the groups feature could possibly be included in the "forum benefits", provided there is a form of moderation to the groups being created. Such things could also be tied to a signature or part of your profile to show that you are in one of the groups. This could also place more "weight" on your main account, along with the linking, to further help people to think more before acting in this community. To do the right thing instead of the wrong thing.
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First off, I'll only be addressing posts and ideas pertaining to an "Elite" Forum Group." (Oh, and another name for said group would be better, elite makes it sound like a bunch of pompous ******bags. I'll refer to said group as the "Idealists.")
IMO the other ideas presented (signatures, etc.) are only effective for the short term. The reason that the community is full of crap is because of a lack of respect for another persons ideas, the fact that they can't acknowledge a valid argument, and a lack of the ability to recognize that they are flawed, that they are human. Things like signature rewards create a false sense improvement. They cause people to pump out good works, not because they truly WANT to, but because they get a reward.
What you need to do is make the community WANT to be respectful, and WANT to improve. You do this by creating something for them to look up to. And this something CANNOT be flawed in it's logic. It has to demonstrate that, if an issue ever arises, it can logic itself to an actual conclusion. A group of intelligent people is this.
My suggestion is like Cypher's. Create a forum section that only specific users can post in, but that all can view. Have those users given a specific forum title or signature, showing that they are one. Encourage heavy discussion in that section for the community to view. Encourage the community to make their OWN discussion thread, and share their opinions on w/e the Idealists are discussing at the time.
If someone in the community shows that they have valid ideas and can accept valid ideas when presented to them, then PM them asking if they wish to be a part of the "Idealists." If an "Idealist" is demonstrating terrible discussion etiquette in the "Idealist" forum section, then have them removed.[GM]Saidin wrote: »And to Polleus point about the in-between group. There are often times when we see people that would make great community members. And then a day later something ticks them off and they lose that respect.
For example. One of these types of people that is respected, can then not turn around and make some comment about banning the entire population of a country from our game. We've stated it clearly that this isn't happening, and making these racial (or nationalist) remarks just destroys all credibility a poster might have had in the past. This is just a simple example, but stuff like this comes up all the time. You don't have to agree with everything we are doing, but if you can't see the larger picture than whats the point of us acknowledging a member to a higher level than a first-time-poster.
Unless you can be more specific, this example can't really be used in the discussion.
I've made threads such as the Scar Light thread that go directly against what I believe for the purpose of a) Testing the community's response, b) Having an extended discussion on the subject with another intelligent forumer (in that case it was Kahlan), or c) Pushing the community to be more open-minded. Unless we know the previous posting history of said example, then we can't come to a conclusion the purpose of his post. Ergo, you can't judge example. Specifics would be appreciated.Bloodyfire. wrote: »For the most part, I agree with Cyphers post but notice flaws within the idea.
Then post the flaws and, if you have them, suggestions to a solution. Just saying that there are flaws does nothing to improve the situation.
P.S. If anyone wants to try to call me a hypocrite, just PM me. The argument would waste space here. -
IMO creating a section where only "elite" members could post has its pros and cons.
Pros: People will start to see how is a good forum made of. They could even get influenced by it and start acting like an intelligent person and stop trolling.
Cons: That wouldn't promote forumers' equality. We're all in the same boat, we have different thoughts and everyone has the right to share his/her opinion on the subject. Plus, would let intelligent people talk in one side, while, and excuse me, the sillier would have to talk on the other.
You're intelligent Denxi, Polleus, Kahlan and many others. Your function here should be correct the others, you should be an example to all. Chatting with intelligent people is good indeed, but IMO everyone has the right to express his opinion.
Don't take me bad Denxi, I have much appreciation for your deeds. -
...Then post the flaws and, if you have them, suggestions to a solution. Just saying that there are flaws does nothing to improve the situation.
A "special" forum only allowing for "selected" users to post could result in people calling favoritism, discrimination, etc. Just a forum titled "Intellectual Discussions" would be fine with everyone being able to post and the discussions could be about anything from thing such as M4 vs AK to The World Ending in 2012 to Constellations in the Sky. Some people might be experts on certain topics than others and they shouldn't miss out on posting their thoughts because they weren't selected.
The reason why I didn't list the main flaw was that the overall idea was good, but will most likely not be put into play. Meaning there is likely not to be a situation to improve. -
Also, an "elite" forum would be a great idea for forumers who want to have educated discussion without the random "wanna-be troll" jumping in and screwing up the thread for others. For the people who think that it will "discriminate" other forumers. There is nothing stopping you from being an educated human. Just go to school, and take any English class. They promote good grammar, and being literate.
A thread in which trolls could not access, and threads not be closed because of players that want to ruin it.
It's the best idea I've read since the idea of making a UK server.
It's not "selected" if they earn it, no?Bloodyfire. wrote:A "special" forum only allowing for "selected" users to post could result in people calling favoritism, discrimination, etc. Just a forum titled "Intellectual Discussions" would be fine with everyone being able to post and the discussions could be about anything from thing such as M4 vs AK to The World Ending in 2012 to Constellations in the Sky. Some people might be experts on certain topics than others and they shouldn't miss out on posting their thoughts because they weren't selected. -
IMO creating a section where only "elite" members could post has its pros and cons.
Pros: People will start to see how is a good forum made of. They could even get influenced by it and start acting like an intelligent person and stop trolling.
Cons: That wouldn't promote forumers' equality. We're all in the same boat, we have different thoughts and everyone has the right to share his/her opinion on the subject. Plus, would let intelligent people talk in one side, while, and excuse me, the sillier would have to talk on the other.
You're intelligent Denxi, Polleus, Kahlan and many others. Your function here should be correct the others, you should be an example to all. Chatting with intelligent people is good indeed, but IMO everyone has the right to express his opinion.
Don't take me bad Denxi, I have much appreciation for your deeds.Bloodyfire. wrote: »A "special" forum only allowing for "selected" users to post could result in people calling favoritism, discrimination, etc. Just a forum titled "Intellectual Discussions" would be fine with everyone being able to post and the discussions could be about anything from thing such as M4 vs AK to The World Ending in 2012 to Constellations in the Sky. Some people might be experts on certain topics than others and they shouldn't miss out on posting their thoughts because they weren't selected.
The reason why I didn't list the main flaw was that the overall idea was good, but will most likely not be put into play. Meaning there is likely not to be a situation to improve.
Couldn't the same thing be said about Modship? People are giving Mod powers due to their personality, intelligence, and nature. This would be basically the same thing.
And I'm not saying exclude them form discussion. Hell, a GM opening a thread in the barracks for discussion on the subject would be great. I'm saying create a section were intelligent discussion can happen without interruption by idiocy. That should inspired at least SOME people to be more accepting of other ideas. -
That's what I'm saying Bloodyfire.
And @ Denxi,
If you want to make an "Elite" section, make it invisible and then attribute the "elite" players the privillege to see that section, so that discrimination won't be a reason to eliminate it, just like MOD's. -
That's what I'm saying Bloodyfire.
And @ Denxi,
If you want to make an "Elite" section, make it invisible and then attribute the "elite" players the privillege to see that section, so that discrimination won't be a reason to eliminate it.
That's just like the Staff section on the forums. It's there, but we can't see it. -
That's just like the Staff section on the forums. It's there, but we can't see it.
That's what I'm saying Hi. At the same time you "wouldn't be stopped by the idiocy of the others", nobody will call you "special" and accusate Z8 of discimination. -
That's what I'm saying Hi. At the same time you "wouldn't be stopped by the idiocy of the others", nobody will call you "special" and accusate Z8 of discimination.
Clearly, we all are in agreement here, why are we still arguing.
Here are some facts we all agree on:- there ARE members of this forum that can hold an intelligent and valid conversation / debate with other forumers
- we [not naming names] HAVE contributed and helped the forum.
- we are active and are sick of trolls ruining complex conversations.
- we need a forum to be able to do this freely, like a reserve for some extinct animals.
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That's what I'm saying Bloodyfire.
And @ Denxi,
If you want to make an "Elite" section, make it invisible and then attribute the "elite" players the privillege to see that section, so that discrimination won't be a reason to eliminate it, just like MOD's.
But that defeats the one of the purposes of it, to inspire people to become more intelligent and accepting.
I'm a good example in this situation. If you put me in a position where I'm trying to discuss a subject, and the person I'm discussing it with can't even accept that I have valid ideas, I become incredibly intolerant with said person. By creating an area where there are no idiotic interruptions, this allows for a better area in which to "role-model."
A good bit of proof to this is the post to MyAWM and Tasty I made a few days ago. -
That's what I'm saying Hi. At the same time you "wouldn't be stopped by the idiocy of the others", nobody will call you "special" and accusate Z8 of discimination.
Again, people don't complain about the Mods getting special powers. (Those powers being banning people)
As long as we don't abuse said privileged, I don't see an issue. Well, I see an issue, but only with the people who can't accept the fact that they're flawed. -
But that defeats the one of the purposes of it, to inspire people to become more intelligent and accepting.
I'm a good example in this situation. If you put me in a position where I'm trying to discuss a subject, and the person I'm discussing it with can't even accept that I have valid ideas, I become incredibly intolerant with said person. By creating an area where there are no idiotic interruptions, this allows for a better area in which to "role-model."
A good bit of proof to this is the post to MyAWM and Tasty I made a few days ago.
We know you're amazingly intelligent.
Just to clarify, Polleus, would this forum just be one forum, or a whole new section of the forum? -
Again, people don't complain about the Mods getting special powers. (Those powers being banning people)
As long as we don't abuse said privileged, I don't see an issue. Well, I see an issue, but only with the people who can't accept the fact that they're flawed.
Agreed, anybody can be educated. It's the choices that you make in real life that effect the outcome of who you are, and will turn out to be. -
It would also be easier to collect and compile data.Pros
Anyone would be able to join the said section of the forums. If one was willing to prove of one's self. You can easily be silly and still be able to get your point across. In fact many times one's point is best understood through humor.Cons
Furthermore if one wishes for the promotion of equality there is always a line that must be drawn. Absolution equality is akin to a tyranny.
Expressing an opinion and diverting from the topic on purpose in order to cause drama are different things. That is the problem, we are all guilty of it. My self, aDr vs EXCESS thread we (Kilou, Derrick and my self) spammed rather "racy" pictures of ******z. Was it an opinion? Sure. Was it off topic? Yup. Furthermore this would in no way limit ones ability to discuss.Chatting with intelligent people is good indeed, but IMO everyone has the right to express his opinion.
If such was the case, then at the very least it SHOULD be the responsibility to pass on relevant information to the rest of the CF community. My reason for having it being visible to all, rather then invisible is that is allows for transparency. As well it would allow the rest of the users of the forums to post responses and post their ideas.If you want to make an "Elite" section, make it invisible and then attribute the "elite" players the privillege to see that section, so that discrimination won't be a reason to eliminate it, just like MOD's.
The purpose would be to allow for growth not stunt it. However not allow rampant growth at the same time.
Also, in response to an early post. I believe by Saidin...
I have already made a length post about this before. Although I believe it was deleted. Basically my point was that if rules are not enforced then there is no reason for rules to be followed. Lets use Kilou, Derrick and my self for an example. We all posted rather similar pictures, however we all were dealt with very differently. Kilou's forum account was perm-banned and his game account was temp-banned for almost a week. Derrick was temp-banned on his forum account and my self my forum account was perm-banned. I mean come on? Were these consequences picked by spinning a bottle or something. Not to mention the amount of rather racist posts on these forums that are ignored and allow to exist. While I understand moderators cannot baby the forums 24/7 at times I feel like nothing is been cared for at all.
Basically it would allow for a section of the forums to exist which did not require constant "supervision" in order to ensure rules were followed. Imagine it as a high school or a college/university compared to the forums as they are now. Which is probably more akin to an adolescent girl.
While this may be going to far, maybe even give users of that section more liberties. As far as being able to edit posts constantly (it would make updating guides, as well as "researching" information easier). Lets be honest here I would much rather be able to edit a post a week after posting it then be able to have a signature.
One thing that would be neat would be to allow players to link to their WOGL accounts for the awards page. Or if you did link players forum accounts and game accounts hold events to allow players to gain like gym badges! You know? Like you win the and gain forum badges for it. Could be like weekly events or bi-weekly, have like forum badge along with 10k GP or something like that depending on the event. -
Yes, the same could be said about it but the counter argument would be that they help benefit the rest of the forums by moderating with what they get compared to only these individuals benefiting because it doesn't help with the rest of the forum.Couldn't the same thing be said about Modship? People are giving Mod powers due to their personality, intelligence, and nature. This would be basically the same thing.
And I'm not saying exclude them form discussion. Hell, a GM opening a thread in the barracks for discussion on the subject would be great. I'm saying create a section were intelligent discussion can happen without interruption by idiocy. That should inspired at least SOME people to be more accepting of other ideas.
Same reason as above.That's just like the Staff section on the forums. It's there, but we can't see it. -
Yeah Denxi, perhaps you're right, but I still have some doubts on that field.
People would see you as "privilleged", while the MODs are seen as "employees of Z8Games". Plus the forums would get full of "Denxi is a moron because he said that" or "Polleus I love you" threads, while if it was invisible this wouldn't happen.
Just my thoughts though. -
Bloodyfire. wrote: »Yes, the same could be said about it but the counter argument would be that they help benefit the rest of the forums by moderating with what they get compared to only these individuals benefiting because it doesn't help with the rest of the forum.
Same reason as above.
I believe I said how the individuals WOULD be benefiting the rest of the forum in my original post.
If you need anything clarified then just ask. -
Bloodyfire. wrote: »Same reason as above.
It shouldn't be our "duty" to report what happens to the community.
It's not like we're getting special information of what's coming to the patch next month on the forum. All it is, is a little forum where active and intelligent forumers could talk and converse without the annoying interruption of a troll. -
Yeah Denxi, perhaps you're right, but I still have some doubts on that field.
People would see you as "privilleged", while the MODs are seen as "employees of Z8Games". Plus the forums would get full of "Denxi is a moron because he said that" or "Polleus I love you" threads, while if it was invisible this wouldn't happen.
Just my thoughts though.
And I think that risk would be much bigger if you took a whole bunch of random forumers and gave them this privilege.
But I bet I could come up with a list of names who're all intelligent enough to NOT cause this. Again, the entire point would be to create a role model setting, in order to inspire the rest of the community to follow suit. Which hopefully wouldn't inspire them to make thread such as those stated. Would be somewhat counter productive xD -
I believe I said how the individuals WOULD be benefiting the rest of the forum in my original post.
If you need anything clarified then just ask.
But disallowing others to have their chance to put their two sense in doesn't seem logical to me. Something that does make more sense is do something like Yahoo Questions does where they have "Top Contributors" and "Experts" or something amongst those lines to show their opinion will most likely matter but still allowing everybody else to participate. -
And I think that risk would be much bigger if you took a whole bunch of random forumers and gave them this privilege.
But I bet I could come up with a list of names who're all intelligent enough to NOT cause this. Again, the entire point would be to create a role model setting, in order to inspire the rest of the community to follow suit. Which hopefully wouldn't inspire them to make thread such as those stated. Would be somewhat counter productive xD
I was about to suggest making an alternative forum, but after looking back on it, it's not that good of an idea. If there was one, it would be pretty cool, to be honest.Bloodyfire. wrote: »But disallowing others to have their chance to put their two sense in doesn't seem logical to me. Something that does make more sense is do something like Yahoo Questions does where they have "Top Contributors" and "Experts" or something amongst those lines to show their opinion will most likely matter but still allowing everybody else to participate.
The "Elite" forumers would still be able to participate in regular Barracks forum discussions. It's not like being an "Elite" forumer would delete their rights to posting in the other forums. -
We know you're amazingly intelligent.
Just to clarify, Polleus, would this forum just be one forum, or a whole new section of the forum?
I would like to see something along the lines of a new section. Allowing separate sub-sections to be made, that pertain to different subject areas. -
It shouldn't be our "duty" to report what happens to the community.
It's not like we're getting special information of what's coming to the patch next month on the forum. All it is, is a little forum where active and intelligent forumers could talk and converse without the annoying interruption of a troll.
Exactly my point. Mods are mods because they are supposed to be the ones who help the GMs look over the forums and help out. Just having "elites" to post in a forum does not seem reasonable to me since they aren't really helping out everyone else on the forum. -
Bloodyfire. wrote: »But disallowing others to have their chance to put their two sense in doesn't seem logical to me. Something that does make more sense is do something like Yahoo Questions does where they have "Top Contributors" and "Experts" or something amongst those lines to show their opinion will most likely matter but still allowing everybody else to participate.
Ah, but the point would be to inspire threads talking about the same subject in the public forums. Something in the same-ish category as prediction threads. Places for the public to share their opinion without actually "intruding" on the subject at hand.
And actually just having the titles isn't a bad idea either. I'd still like to see a separate forum section, but I can see that working as well. -
The "Elite" forumers would still be able to participate in regular Barracks forum discussions. It's not like being an "Elite" forumer would delete their rights to posting in the other forums.
You have it backwards, I mean a regular forumer posting in the Elite section. -
And I think that risk would be much bigger if you took a whole bunch of random forumers and gave them this privilege.
But I bet I could come up with a list of names who're all intelligent enough to NOT cause this. Again, the entire point would be to create a role model setting, in order to inspire the rest of the community to follow suit. Which hopefully wouldn't inspire them to make thread such as those stated. Would be somewhat counter productive xD
You know how the community is. It won't change that quickly, so at least keep in mind that in the first weeks that could happen.
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