M4 Tourney Mess #2.
ohai der Mods, I have a computer now so I can type something a bit better than the mess I did on my QVGA phone. Apologies for any strong words in the last thread or this one.
Rex, "Discussing a locked or removed thread is forbidden". First, I think that's a lame rule, but alright. I'm creating an argument based on a tournament. I'm using posts in a locked thread to support my argument. If this isn't allowed, it would be plain ridiculous; locking a thread would then nullify all opinions within it? I am continuing with a debate I wished to participate in in the previous thread; you presented arguments before closing it, I wish to rebut until I am proven wrong. If I can still present arguments which seem reasonable, why was the other thread locked (if my arguments are unreasonable, state why instead of DDoTt's "GET OVER IT")? I didn't appreciate the caps used there either, borderlined with the Forum Rules.
Dot, I understand that there are implications of using an "unable to join" setting - if someone's disconnected, there goes the game. However, would it be really too hard to organise for a passworded room, with the password only disclosed to the Mods and both teams? A ghoster would be plain obvious this way, as the password would not be a global one for the tourney.
I have three other arguments for the inability of kicking a spectator, but they require your input. The obvious and unreasonable one would be that such powers should have been given prior to the tournament. Even I can discredit this one with a simple "easier said than done".
The second is that the match could have been restarted, but of course this does have flaws - the match could have been almost complete, or there might have been time restraints. However, I think players and Mods alike should have been able to fork out the extra minutes if the tournament ultimately meant that much to them (for the players on the losing side, it seems it did; for the Mods, I would presume there should be pride in a great tournament you have organised).
The last argument also requires confirmation. Is a spectator able to see what is being typed by players in a room? If so, the spectator could have easily been told to remove himself or suffer consequences. If not, forget about this argument.
I do believe that if you don't wish to put in full effort to establishing a fantastic tourney, you shouldn't have organised it. While it's not "Z8 official", it was organised by Mods and hence was widely regarded as official. If you were a randy who made a biased competition, I could care less. But forumers should not suck up with comments such as "it's a free tourney, don't complain". If you're willing to publish a tourney (as Mods), you should be willing to carry through with it.
Challenging times are what defines leaders. I don't learn anything about Mods watching them go around the daily rounds on the forums. In my humble opinion, Rex did err in his actions, and it simply appears to me that arrogance comes in the way of him admitting this. You have done well with the tournament; it would not hurt to address the public with what went wrong and a promise the next one (if you continue) will learn from this. If a leader mishandles a challenge...
DDoTt, you were more disappointing than the other two replies I received. "And Rex is right, we can close threads "as we see fit"." My point (and Delaco's) is that you can. You shouldn't always, however. There should be an answer to this dilemma, and shutting out opposition is not the right way to go about it. If you abuse powers (in my case it's probably not), there are higher powers than the Mods who can decide whether you keep your position. Abusing powers does not go well with the community either (except for those who suck up, if you pardon me for using "strong" words like those).
DDoTt, I addressed the ingame powers issue above. As for "Secondly, the tournament is DONE... GET OVER IT." That's upsetting at best. I think even you can tell me what you did wrong by stating this.
I do not approve of the closing of threads due to, well, the "freedom of speech" argument. While you have the powers and rights to, I am here for a reasonable debate on what went wrong and what should have been done. If you close the thread with three Mods having the final say, it's not resolved by a long shot. I have my argument, and the only way you're really going to get rid of it is a ban or deletion of the threads (both horrible escapist measures that would do nothing but communicate you can't back up your arguments).
So keep this open please. Don't act on certain rules when they benefit you, when many Forum Rules are broken (I see necromancy, bumping, racism and insults daily, and I have committed such wrongs myself).The community is likely to side you anyway, what's the harm in shutting me down?
I liked the approach taken to Kelathe's thread, "I'm Taking Action" at http://forum.z8games.com/showthread.php?t=96007. You heard Kelathe out, and only closed it once randys started to flame each other.
EDIT: forgot I submitted the wrong thing in the other thread. Did not mean to talk about bans, I was instead supposed to speak about forumer's attitudes. None of the forumers bothered to put themselves in the losing team's shoes - "free unofficial tourney, wahahaha you lost". If I lost and there was a possibility of ghosting, I would express my concerns, probably rather harshly.
tl;dr | close the thread?
Rex, "Discussing a locked or removed thread is forbidden". First, I think that's a lame rule, but alright. I'm creating an argument based on a tournament. I'm using posts in a locked thread to support my argument. If this isn't allowed, it would be plain ridiculous; locking a thread would then nullify all opinions within it? I am continuing with a debate I wished to participate in in the previous thread; you presented arguments before closing it, I wish to rebut until I am proven wrong. If I can still present arguments which seem reasonable, why was the other thread locked (if my arguments are unreasonable, state why instead of DDoTt's "GET OVER IT")? I didn't appreciate the caps used there either, borderlined with the Forum Rules.
Dot, I understand that there are implications of using an "unable to join" setting - if someone's disconnected, there goes the game. However, would it be really too hard to organise for a passworded room, with the password only disclosed to the Mods and both teams? A ghoster would be plain obvious this way, as the password would not be a global one for the tourney.
I have three other arguments for the inability of kicking a spectator, but they require your input. The obvious and unreasonable one would be that such powers should have been given prior to the tournament. Even I can discredit this one with a simple "easier said than done".
The second is that the match could have been restarted, but of course this does have flaws - the match could have been almost complete, or there might have been time restraints. However, I think players and Mods alike should have been able to fork out the extra minutes if the tournament ultimately meant that much to them (for the players on the losing side, it seems it did; for the Mods, I would presume there should be pride in a great tournament you have organised).
The last argument also requires confirmation. Is a spectator able to see what is being typed by players in a room? If so, the spectator could have easily been told to remove himself or suffer consequences. If not, forget about this argument.
I do believe that if you don't wish to put in full effort to establishing a fantastic tourney, you shouldn't have organised it. While it's not "Z8 official", it was organised by Mods and hence was widely regarded as official. If you were a randy who made a biased competition, I could care less. But forumers should not suck up with comments such as "it's a free tourney, don't complain". If you're willing to publish a tourney (as Mods), you should be willing to carry through with it.
Challenging times are what defines leaders. I don't learn anything about Mods watching them go around the daily rounds on the forums. In my humble opinion, Rex did err in his actions, and it simply appears to me that arrogance comes in the way of him admitting this. You have done well with the tournament; it would not hurt to address the public with what went wrong and a promise the next one (if you continue) will learn from this. If a leader mishandles a challenge...
DDoTt, you were more disappointing than the other two replies I received. "And Rex is right, we can close threads "as we see fit"." My point (and Delaco's) is that you can. You shouldn't always, however. There should be an answer to this dilemma, and shutting out opposition is not the right way to go about it. If you abuse powers (in my case it's probably not), there are higher powers than the Mods who can decide whether you keep your position. Abusing powers does not go well with the community either (except for those who suck up, if you pardon me for using "strong" words like those).
DDoTt, I addressed the ingame powers issue above. As for "Secondly, the tournament is DONE... GET OVER IT." That's upsetting at best. I think even you can tell me what you did wrong by stating this.
I do not approve of the closing of threads due to, well, the "freedom of speech" argument. While you have the powers and rights to, I am here for a reasonable debate on what went wrong and what should have been done. If you close the thread with three Mods having the final say, it's not resolved by a long shot. I have my argument, and the only way you're really going to get rid of it is a ban or deletion of the threads (both horrible escapist measures that would do nothing but communicate you can't back up your arguments).
So keep this open please. Don't act on certain rules when they benefit you, when many Forum Rules are broken (I see necromancy, bumping, racism and insults daily, and I have committed such wrongs myself).The community is likely to side you anyway, what's the harm in shutting me down?
I liked the approach taken to Kelathe's thread, "I'm Taking Action" at http://forum.z8games.com/showthread.php?t=96007. You heard Kelathe out, and only closed it once randys started to flame each other.
EDIT: forgot I submitted the wrong thing in the other thread. Did not mean to talk about bans, I was instead supposed to speak about forumer's attitudes. None of the forumers bothered to put themselves in the losing team's shoes - "free unofficial tourney, wahahaha you lost". If I lost and there was a possibility of ghosting, I would express my concerns, probably rather harshly.
tl;dr | close the thread?
Comments
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Okay, so a universal password was used? Smart, that defeats the whole purpose.
If unique passwords were used, ghosting should have been dealt with immediately with no excuses.
& Do you think I care, CareBare? I wasn't even part of the tourney. I'm posting because I'm interested in how they will respond. This issue brought out the true sides of some Mods (for me). -
We used passwords for all the rooms. Passwords were not universal but different with every room.They were not using passwords?
oh dear...
Well, thats something for next time to impliment.
Since we didn't have time for every mod to establish contact with one player from every 28 teams, we concluded that it would be easier to create forum threads.
Especially with the amount of alting and ringing going on.
It went pretty well all together, ghosting wasn't a problem even if there were spectators since modes played were TDM and ES.
Two or three teams felt the need to include their own clan members in the spectator list in the later rounds, something we dealt with differently.
I had personally established a pretty good contact with my teams and could relay the password without posting it publicly.
Others had not, due to aforementioned ringing and other nonsense, so they handled it as best they could. Which was closing the room once the team was in place.
This will probably be changed in future tournaments, hopefully with a more automated system for matchups and team contact.
For a 'first try' (for me at least as I weren't a part of the AK tournament), I still stand by that this went very well. We all learned, some won, some didn't and hopefully with that realized that they can lose or perhaps weren't great sports. -
It did go well.
I found it interesting and entertaining.
First round, winning 60-59, when we were losing 55-59. Comeback + amazing ventrilo reactions.
All the way to the finals, it was interesting.
Ghosting was not a problem for us, so I don't find it worth discussing.
Key Term:
Free Tournament
And let's be honest, ghosting will always be a problem.
1. Make a unique password, but someone from a team can tell anyone the password to ghost.
2. Make it unable to join, but if someone d/cs, your screwed. -
Okay, so a universal password was used? Smart, that defeats the whole purpose.
If unique passwords were used, ghosting should have been dealt with immediately with no excuses.
& Do you think I care, CareBare? I wasn't even part of the tourney. I'm posting because I'm interested in how they will respond. This issue brought out the true sides of some Mods (for me).
If you weren't part of the tournament than obviously you don't know what your talking about. -
Probably not a huge problem, but it left a gaping hole in which a losing team could create a huge issue out of. If a ghoster was played correctly, you would somewhat have a wallhack.
As I understand, the issue was a possible ghoster who somehow made it into a room. If the room was closed on it's entry the match could have been restarted with a 30 seconds delay; if it was passworded, "cheat" could have been blatantly called. A minor fault compared to the major success of the tourney, but still existent.
I don't disagree that it was done well. Very well. However, it's nice that you can clear up what some have regarded to be a "mess" (and therefore the title). Thanks for communicating the "first try" argument and the possibility of better future tournaments.
I don't know any details, but I am presenting arguments from a general perspective. If you haven't noticed, I have only found reassurance from Dot. The other Mods presented sub-par responses. I would appreciate if you would leave the thread, considering you don't seem to want to contribute.If you weren't part of the tournament than obviously you don't know what your talking about.
From what I see, it was a success, and I expressed that. I covered your second ghosting argument. The first one, also so - the match should be stopped if indeed a cheat is suspected. Perhaps it was a free tournament, but the moderators took to the issue very protectively, which really puzzled me.Excludable wrote: »And let's be honest, ghosting will always be a problem.
1. Make a unique password, but someone from a team can tell anyone the password to ghost.
2. Make it unable to join, but if someone d/cs, your screwed. -
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this all supposed to be for fun? Why are people taking it so seriously? Whether mistakes were/were not made is irrelevant at this point. Why continue this? Such things can be taken up privately with a Moderator if you have suggestions for future tournaments. No need to continue it here, whether your intentions were good or not. Someone will come in here and start a fight again. We all know where that is going to end up.
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I believe the Mods are monitoring this regardless. If someone fights when I'm looking at the thread, I'll be asking for a thread close.Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this all supposed to be for fun? Why are people taking it so seriously? Whether mistakes were/were not made is irrelevant at this point. Why continue this? Such things can be taken up privately with a Moderator if you have suggestions for future tournaments. No need to continue it here, whether your intentions were good or not. Someone will come in here and start a fight again. We all know where that is going to end up.
I did not know which Mod to approach before this thread - from reading others, Giggle, Rex, and DDoTt were strangely defensive over this issue. I know now.
Dot acknowledged that improvements could be made to future tournaments. Other moderators never expressed this, instead opting to appear arrogant and brushing off all criticism. -
I'd be pretty bitter too if several threads were made regarding the same issue in a rude and argumentative manner. Instead of approaching the Moderators a different way, only flaming commenced. Regardless of whether or not the issues were valid, they should have been addressed differently by the community members. If such things were approached the way you have approached them here, maybe the Moderators would not have been so quick to close the thread and decline to provide a better statement.
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We used passwords for all the rooms. Passwords were not universal but different with every room.
Since we didn't have time for every mod to establish contact with one player from every 28 teams, we concluded that it would be easier to create forum threads.
Especially with the amount of alting and ringing going on.
It went pretty well all together, ghosting wasn't a problem even if there were spectators since modes played were TDM and ES.
Two or three teams felt the need to include their own clan members in the spectator list in the later rounds, something we dealt with differently.
I had personally established a pretty good contact with my teams and could relay the password without posting it publicly.
Others had not, due to aforementioned ringing and other nonsense, so they handled it as best they could. Which was closing the room once the team was in place.
This will probably be changed in future tournaments, hopefully with a more automated system for matchups and team contact.
For a 'first try' (for me at least as I weren't a part of the AK tournament), I still stand by that this went very well. We all learned, some won, some didn't and hopefully with that realized that they can lose or perhaps weren't great sports.
DOT HAS SPOKEN!
Idk what he says, but this wall of text looks promising. -
The spectator function leaves much to be desired.
If you are GR you can see the BL's aswell.
You don't have choice of changing to 1st person or 3rd view only.
You can't see what the players are writing.
You can't be kicked.
You can't write.
All functions that should be a must. -
4 of my threads asking why rex LET a spectator in our game and refused to do anything about it and then when ANOTHER one joined he wouldn't stop the game and when i questioned him about it i was told im a twit and that i have no freedom of speech and he will do what he wants.
topic closed. i bet you watch this one lol -
I believe the Mods are monitoring this regardless. If someone fights when I'm looking at the thread, I'll be asking for a thread close.
I did not know which Mod to approach before this thread - from reading others, Giggle, Rex, and DDoTt were strangely defensive over this issue. I know now.
Dot acknowledged that improvements could be made to future tournaments. Other moderators never expressed this, instead opting to appear arrogant and brushing off all criticism.
I only did rounds 1 and 2 so I have no idea what happened in the later rounds so I dont know what youre talking about there about me being defensive. I disallowed ANY spectators and 2+ clan members in one team. Anyone that did spectate were kicked after or before the match.
If the ghosting problem had never risen in this tournament, then the steps taken by the other mods would not have been necessary, so really, you only have yourselves to blame.
Next tournament, things will be changed as we now know what problems will arise and how we can counter them -
gtg
hes probably gonna ignore this or close the thread or a stupid reply4 of my threads asking why rex LET a spectator in our game and refused to do anything about it and then when ANOTHER one joined he wouldn't stop the game and when i questioned him about it i was told im a twit and that i have no freedom of speech and he will do what he wants.
topic closed. i bet you watch this one lol -
Perhaps if you had also done some research, you would have known for that exact match I took OFF the password to the public. And kept it so only teams knew after that.
AND you're the one complaining it was a ghost for their team, meaning someone would have given them the pass. But all I know, is I hit the kick button on him, whether that was the same guy, or a clan member, I can not prove, but if it was a clan member, a simple giving the pass would have worked. And aswell, how do we know he didn't ghost for you, but you guys tried to pin it on them? We didn't have the time, it was getting late, and we didn't even get to do the match vs. the MODs like I wanted to do. You had a chance to make it up in the second half, that didn't go as well for you guys. I took their word for it, because we had to get moving, we simply did not have, nor was capable at this time to re-do things. Our staff was low, and for UK it was getting late.
Edit:
Not to mention, but how can the MODs be expected to have contact with everyone to get them all in game? It was for the community, and we do not know ever single person in the community. We tried our best, how about some credit for even doing something for you at all?
Edit 2:
Oh, and your approach to that "Taking actions" thread, to bad you didn't see the PMs going on.
Edit 3:I do believe that if you don't wish to put in full effort to establishing a fantastic tourney, you shouldn't have organised it. While it's not "Z8 official", it was organised by Mods and hence was widely regarded as official. If you were a randy who made a biased competition, I could care less. But forumers should not suck up with comments such as "it's a free tourney, don't complain". If you're willing to publish a tourney (as Mods), you should be willing to carry through with it.
First off, I've said fairly quite enough it wasn't "Official" and also, if it was, GM's would have a big part of it. You're telling others to not suck up, when all they are doing is appreciating the fact, We did our best, and we tried. We put as much effort as we can, and by damnit, the only thing you've proven to me, is how useless it is trying to please people.
Edit 4:
The whole reason I have that talk back on the final way, is so people can kindly, and calmly talk about it.
You don't have to be so harsh, you should be grateful we even did it. We will look into a new system for the next time, and I am already thinking about it, and will soon be ready to talk to Saidin about it. As MODs we don't have full access to things, and this makes it difficult to do things. Especially with how such things work in games. If we were able to kick spectators, trust me, he would have been gone, but it was getting late, MOD staff was tired, sick, but we still pulled together and did this. I think that deserves some credit.
Apart from this one problem, it was a pretty good success in my eyes, and next time, who ever takes my place and holds the next one, I'm sure it'll be even better.
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Perhaps if you had also done some research, you would have known for that exact match I took OFF the password to the public. And kept it so only teams knew after that.
AND you're the one complaining it was a ghost for their team, meaning someone would have given them the pass. But all I know, is I hit the kick button on him, whether that was the same guy, or a clan member, I can not prove, but if it was a clan member, a simple giving the pass would have worked. And aswell, how do we know he didn't ghost for you, but you guys tried to pin it on them? We didn't have the time, it was getting late, and we didn't even get to do the match vs. the MODs like I wanted to do. You had a chance to make it up in the second half, that didn't go as well for you guys. I took their word for it, because we had to get moving, we simply did not have, nor was capable at this time to re-do things. Our staff was low, and for UK it was getting late.
Edit:
Not to mention, but how can the MODs be expected to have contact with everyone to get them all in game? It was for the community, and we do not know ever single person in the community. We tried our best, how about some credit for even doing something for you at all?
Edit 2:
Oh, and your approach to that "Taking actions" thread, to bad you didn't see the PMs going on.
Edit 3:
First off, I've said fairly quite enough it wasn't "Official" and also, if it was, GM's would have a big part of it. You're telling others to not suck up, when all they are doing is appreciating the fact, We did our best, and we tried. We put as much effort as we can, and by damnit, the only thing you've proven to me, is how useless it is trying to please people.
Edit 4:
The whole reason I have that talk back on the final way, is so people can kindly, and calmly talk about it.
You don't have to be so harsh, you should be grateful we even did it. We will look into a new system for the next time, and I am already thinking about it, and will soon be ready to talk to Saidin about it. As MODs we don't have full access to things, and this makes it difficult to do things. Especially with how such things work in games. If we were able to kick spectators, trust me, he would have been gone, but it was getting late, MOD staff was tired, sick, but we still pulled together and did this. I think that deserves some credit.
Apart from this one problem, it was a pretty good success in my eyes, and next time, who ever takes my place and holds the next one, I'm sure it'll be even better.
Best thing to do MOD TEAM; Would be to get a server based ventrillo and place the teams in the vent. Then if possible have a mod in each room. End of problems, if they are not on the vent they are DQ. Secondly, if the MOD finds that someone is in the Vent that is not on the team; and is found to be ghosting; agian DQ.
Good Tournement; Somethings that need to be changed; YES! But you have to understand that this is a learning experience for the community and the MODS. People who are downing on the Mods really need to take a step into their shoes, Ive been there not for this game but for another. These things are very hard to control; do to the varability of players and the community.
Good Job MOD TEAM; Keep up the good work. -
It went well.. It's just sore losers who blame their loss on a spectator.
Agreed bro ^^ Quit Crying, it was a Free tourney just for fun, if you didn't like it don't join to one if theres another one again.
I enjoy it, good tourney, but to many people crying for a simple free tourney. -
Password should have been unique for every game, and given via a PM to clan leaders on the forum, and CC'd to every CF mod and GM. As well, no game should be started with an additional user in the game.
In the event of a user being in-game + no time avaliable for mods/players to restart the game, another date should be set for the game (if possible). -
pfft, details
Assign 1 user to be the captain of every team
Also, pinapples
Not able to do, which was, as showed, certain people, even people we expected there, was not.
On the other note, the teams did not have full contact with their team, being random people assigned with them.
Everything was fine except this one team.
Also, each games pass WAS unique. -
@Giggle, sorry for not fully understanding the issue. I didn't know you guys were under amounting pressure from the losing side, and pushed to the extreme. I was referencing how the Mods were shutting down threads that were more aggressively-sided.
At a whole lot of posters, you don't get the message of the OP. Freedom of speech was enclosed by these things: "". Ever understood them? I stated I came for a debate and having the final three says did not prove anything on either side, leaving the issue (or non-issue) ultimately unresolved.well its a game an freedom of speech i dnt think applies to gaming just sayin :P
Trolling the Mods will simply close the thread, we can keep a *reasonable* discussion going if we ignore the downies who are trying to troll back.hes probably gonna ignore this or close the thread or a stupid reply
Again, I wasn't on the losing side. I wrote the original post regarding some responses I gained from reading around and provoking Mods in another thread. I was interested in the responses, as I believed the issue could have been dealt with better.
A spectator should never have been present or kept in-game. Which side he/she was ghosting for or whether he/she was ghosting are irrelevant. -
Rex, I have acknowledged the Mods efforts throughout my posts in this thread. I have stated that the good by far outdoes the "bad", but that bad is nonetheless present for some.
My argument of "sucking up" was the typical forumer siding with you and shutting down the losing team. Since there was a spectator, there will be some debate and they should be dealt with rather than riding on the forumers' posts. You did so in this thread and I fully acknowledge that; again, you deserve all the praise you are getting.
EDIT 1: The scheduling mishaps show another area probably overlooked. Matches should run at times where things do not need to be rushed or completed on the first attempt, despite any disruptions.
EDIT 2: You seem to have overlooked the whole point of my paragraph, which was that you are Mods and respected members of the community. That's as official as it gets without real "approval".
Granted the success of this tourney, I'm sure Saidin will be happy to ensure true support for future ones.
EDIT 3: With Z8's support and more planning, teams could be organised on a longer notice with effective communication channels set up. The Vent server could be somewhat "bypassed" by using another program, but is a great idea.
Uniquity of the password was the first step, great to see it was implemented. Follow-ups to clear bypassings of the intention of passwording the room should have been dealt with.
****************Understand that the initial reason for this thread was to obtain clarification that certain mishaps were acknowledged and better methods could be considered for future tournaments. That has been covered early by Dot. I'm willing to continue to speak my perspective, but calling out the Mods or criticising the losing team will not achieve anything.
EDIT 4:
Please read the OP (and responses as they are equally as revealing in this thread) before posting. It was not made for me to cry about a tournament (that I did not even participate in).Agreed bro ^^ Quit Crying, it was a Free tourney just for fun, if you didn't like it don't join to one if theres another one again.
I enjoy it, good tourney, but to many people crying for a simple free tourney.
Please read the OP (and responses as they are equally as revealing in this thread) before posting. I have acknowledged its success numerous times and revealed the contention of this thread. The spectator should never have been a factor - as it's too late, the thread pushed that it shouldn't be a factor in future tournaments.It went well.. It's just sore losers who blame their loss on a spectator.
![[dot]](https://forum.z8games.com/uploads/customavatars/27/navatar_2942827.gif){kind=avatar}
![[MOD]Polleus](https://forum.z8games.com/uploads/customavatars/7/navatar_8918107.gif){kind=avatar}
![[Andre]](https://z8games.akamaized.net/cfna/forum/customavatars/93/navatar_3936893.gif){kind=avatar}
![[MOD]Rex](https://z8games.akamaized.net/cfna/forum/customavatars/68/navatar_3617368.gif){kind=avatar}
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