https://imgur.com/7r6t6uq
CFNA Top 10 Rankings
Comments
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Me: "I think xfam0usx played amazingly well at CFGI and has positioned himself as a top 10 player in our community."
You: "that's ridiculous why did you rank him so low?"
Me: "*explains my reasoning*"
You: "you're just biased and don't think Famous should be in a top team. I'd prove you wrong but you care too much"
Me: xd
god I wish CF forums were active on twitter
ppl arent arguing with you just because you said he's only a top 10 player. they are arguing with you because you act like he doesnt deserve to be on a top team. if the best lan player in na history doesnt deserve to be on a top team then who does?
also you keep saying that at cfgi he was only one of the most dominating performances by an na player but im pretty sure that no na player has even come close to that performance. why not just say its the best performance na has had? i dont understand
edit:
You aren't going to make this a thing as well. I did say, "when I'm being serious." When I'm being attacked by you in my chat, I obviously won't respond as reasonably as when someone seriously asks for my list. I have consistently said that I don't like online CF near as much as LAN and that I'm "trash" online.
great performance at cfgi! -
also you keep saying that at cfgi he was only one of the most dominating performances by an na player but im pretty sure that no na player has even come close to that performance. why not just say its the best performance na has had? i dont understand
xoTeK iS biAsEd
o waitxfam0usx? He is coming fresh off of one of the - if not the - most dominating performances by any NA player in the history of LAN.
what
You aren't going to make this a thing as well. I did say, "when I'm being serious." When I'm being attacked by you in my chat, I obviously won't respond as reasonably as when someone seriously asks for my list. I have consistently said that I don't like online CF near as much as LAN and that I'm "trash" online.
Just put the shovel down, stop digging, please. It's painfulWhen asked, I never put myself even in the top 5 or barely 10 for online NA CF -
xoTeK iS biAsEd
o wait
what
Just put the shovel down, stop digging, please. It's painful
yeah thats what i mean tho.. you cant even bring yourself to outright call this the best performance from an na player even tho there isnt one that compares. you just say one of the best instead of simply saying that its the best even tho you know it is. the only ones that possibly compare that i can remember are other lan tournaments by him. -
you cant even bring yourself to outright call this the best performance from an na player even tho there isnt one that compares.
That's not quite true. Players like Tyler in CFGI, Brando in CFS S1, Gandhi in 2015, etc, all had at least comparable performances or potentially better, although you can argue with regards to actual impact. Famous played great in CFGI though, clearly -
michealdrkkt wrote: »
That's not quite true. Players like Tyler in CFGI, Brando in CFS S1, Gandhi in 2015, etc, all had at least comparable performances or potentially better, although you can argue with regards to actual impact. Famous played great in CFGI though, clearly
i didnt kno about brando in cfs s1. that was a good performance from him! gandhi is andrej from the cfs site? how are those performances comparable or haha potentially better? even if you just take stats then only andrejs compares to xfamousx in cfgi. then you consider who they played and its again not at all equal. andre had an insane game that really boosted his stats but it was against korea and we all kno how good they are. the only one who had a good statline against fair competition was 15ol in cfgi 2016 and his stats do not compare to xfamousxs. i do not kno who brando played in cfs 1 but 0.8 k/r is much lower than the almost .9 that xfam did and im sure that the international teams back then were not good at all. xfam really looked like he was hard carrying in some of those games in cfgi especially when they struggled to barely get out of groups and they ended up getting 2nd while playing against competition like bd who won a tournament last year against vg, ag who are legends in cfpl, q9 who just won cfpl, boss who beat the 2nd place eva from cfs 2017 to get there, and pm who are the best international team of all time. even having 80% of the performance of 15ol andrej or brando would have been more impressive than their own because of who they played against.
edit: look at cfs 2017 and you can see that xfam had a similar k/r there at cfs than cfgi but i dont think anyone would say that his cfs performance was as good as cfgi. also look at supamen in cfs compared to cfgi. you can see the level of competition is much higher in cfgi
edit 2: also if we talk about impact you must notice that in cfgi his teammates were numbers 17 22 23 and 30 out of 30 players at cfgi for k/r and they placed 2. i think that says even more than what i said above -
i didnt kno about brando in cfs s1. that was a good performance from him! gandhi is andrej from the cfs site? how are those performances comparable or haha potentially better? even if you just take stats then only andrejs compares to xfamousx in cfgi. then you consider who they played and its again not at all equal. andre had an insane game that really boosted his stats but it was against korea and we all kno how good they are. the only one who had a good statline against fair competition was 15ol in cfgi 2016 and his stats do not compare to xfamousxs. i do not kno who brando played in cfs 1 but 0.8 k/r is much lower than the almost .9 that xfam did and im sure that the international teams back then were not good at all. xfam really looked like he was hard carrying in some of those games in cfgi especially when they struggled to barely get out of groups and they ended up getting 2nd while playing against competition like bd who won a tournament last year against vg, ag who are legends in cfpl, q9 who just won cfpl, boss who beat the 2nd place eva from cfs 2017 to get there, and pm who are the best international team of all time. even having 80% of the performance of 15ol andrej or brando would have been more impressive than their own because of who they played against.
edit: look at cfs 2017 and you can see that xfam had a similar k/r there at cfs than cfgi but i dont think anyone would say that his cfs performance was as good as cfgi. also look at supamen in cfs compared to cfgi. you can see the level of competition is much higher in cfgi
Gandhi farmed a bit in their first match yes, but even still it's inaccurate to say that nobody has a comparable performance to famous in CFGI despite how good he did play and how impactful he was, which was my point. And you really can't say "competition was worse back then" because everything moves in relation to itself: top players back then were comparable to other top players and top players now are comparable to other top players
And also no, the CFGI talent pool was not super impressive. BD played without their actual roster (they 2-0'd Macta and 2-0'd a Chinese team in CFPL with their actual roster right after CFGI), Boss clearly didn't perform as well as Eva Team had in the past against international competition, Q9 lost their best player right before CFGI and thus didn't practice or care too much, etc. And the best team in the world, SV, wasn't present because mzin (the most impactful player in China and in the world) was inactive from CF during the CFGI qualifier -
Let's end this debate. You're not a top 3 player x0tek. enough said. you should be ranked #8 and below. You're nothing more. You are acting like a stubborn baby right now when you are nearly 30(idk, im just estimate from how made your hairline is and how long you have played the game). You obvious keep ignoring me because im spitting facts. Famous is top 3 and thats the bottom line.
PS WTF is actually wrong with you? brain damage? -
michealdrkkt wrote: »
Gandhi farmed a bit in their first match yes, but even still it's inaccurate to say that nobody has a comparable performance to famous in CFGI despite how good he did play and how impactful he was, which was my point. And you really can't say "competition was worse back then" because everything moves in relation to itself: top players back then were comparable to other top players and top players now are comparable to other top players
And also no, the CFGI talent pool was not super impressive. BD played without their actual roster (they 2-0'd Macta and 2-0'd a Chinese team in CFPL with their actual roster right after CFGI), Boss clearly didn't perform as well as Eva Team had in the past against international competition, Q9 lost their best player right before CFGI and thus didn't practice or care too much, etc. And the best team in the world, SV, wasn't present because mzin (the most impactful player in China and in the world) was inactive from CF during the CFGI qualifier
you can look at xfams signature and see that he has had lans that he had even higher k/r than cfgi but cfgi was still his best performance because of the close competition and how much he did for his team compared to his teammates and because they got 2. again i point out that his teammate were mostly 20 to 30 on the list for k/r where all other teams that were 1-4 have almost all their team in the top 17 rank and xfam looked like the best player at the tournament. andrej did not just farm a little bit he farmed a lot on korea and carb did not do very good that lan. if you want to talk only stat then some of xfam other lans have been better than cfgi and everyone else by far but cfgi was his best performance that i have seen. no other na player has compared to this lan for sure
my origin is from Brasil and you are not correct.. vianna did not want to play cfpl and he said this on his page and in interviews that he thinks it is a waste of time. he choose to let mazin join the team for cfpl so they can play and then after that he will return to them for cfs. they are in the preseason for cfpl and they won against pm and white sharks and lose to acme with the vvip rules. do you rly think bd would remove theyre best player? vianna is the leader of bd.. also they only lose 8-10 vs pm in cfgi.
almost all of boss games go into overtime and they were unlucky to lose many of them. they did not have a really bad tournament but they just lose in overtimes. remember that they beat eva team to qualify. q9 lose their best player but he went back to ag and that made ag even stronger. ag was the only team in china that always had decent results against sv/vg so they were very strong this tournament. q9 is still strong because they are a chinese team so dont act like they are just so weak. -
no other na player has compared to this lan for sure
Again, saying that no other performance is comparable is inaccurate. Famous' probably was the best, but even throwing out Gandhi's event there's still Tyler's and Brando's that were "comparably" as impactful. But at this point it's probably just semantics
My bad, misunderstood the announcements when it got translatedhe choose to let mazin join the team for cfpl so they can play and then after that he will return to them for cfs.almost all of boss games go into overtime and they were unlucky to lose many of them. they did not have a really bad tournament but they just lose in overtimes. remember that they beat eva team to qualify
Having strong starts to games is great, but if they're consistently unable to win a map when they're up by ~5 rounds and then end up consistently losing in OT and ultimately going 1-5, clearly there's issues. And yes they beat Eva in CFEL but that doesn't necessarily mean that their results internationally are going to be better (and they weren't). Domestic matchups are tricky and often play out very differently than against foreign teams
That's... not how competitive works. Yes they're Chinese and yes they're very good—every team at the top is good—but relative to how good the best team from China usually is, Q9 was weak. With Linkin still on their team perhaps it would've been different, but without their best player and without practice they weren't (and no team would be) a particularly dominant teamq9 is still strong because they are a chinese team so dont act like they are just so weakag was the only team in china that always had decent results against sv/vg so they were very strong this tournament
Again, that's not how competitive works. AG was pretty good at CFGI (but irrelevant to how close they play against SV) but they had a lot of issues that the #1 representative from China shouldn't have, most noticeably a lack of true leadership resulting in them losing games that they shouldn't have
The Chinese teams were more like a #2 and a #3/#4 seed rather than a #1 and #2 seed, Boss wasn't particularly good, and I'm sure BD wasn't pleased with their performance either. The only team that consistently played to a very high level was Macta. It's pretty evident that the level of competition in CFGI was not super high and certainly not higher than it is for past or future CFS eventsTheHungedMan wrote: »
As for Boss not performing as good as EVA Team, I doubt EVA Team would've achieved any better results when they placed 4th at CFEL this year losing to Hero King (those guys also managed to beat Cherry Stars too) until Boss was the only team who was able to stop HK from being the true dark horses during that season. IMO, Boss's invite to CFGI was well deserved since they seeded 1st at the regular season of CFEL ...
Domestic matchups =/= International matchupsQ9 did lose their stronger player but they were still able to compete very well at CFGI since they were the only team to take off maps from PM and they also had a very real chance of winning against them as well in the semifinals so that doesn't mean that they aren't strong either ...
Again, no they didn't play "bad" but the original post was that the competition here was much higher than it usually is. In the context of Chinese teams in international events, Q9 is much weaker than SV and AG is weaker as wellThere's also no CFGI qualifiers either
Yeah, I just said CFGI Qualifier because I'm sure some people didn't know that CFEL/CFPL winners are the ones who get invited. Potentially less confusion wording it that way
But this isn't even relevant to the thread so I'll leave it there and stop posting -
michealdrkkt wrote: »
And also no, the CFGI talent pool was not super impressive. BD played without their actual roster (they 2-0'd Macta and 2-0'd a Chinese team in CFPL with their actual roster right after CFGI), Boss clearly didn't perform as well as Eva Team had in the past against international competition, Q9 lost their best player right before CFGI and thus didn't practice or care too much, etc. And the best team in the world, SV, wasn't present because mzin (the most impactful player in China and in the world) was inactive from CF during the CFGI qualifier
I don't think that's quite true at all. That was indeed BD's full roster participating at CFGI and likely for CFS as well, mazin is just their 6th player which only participates in CFPL currently so the question is are BD going to replace Vianna (which is their only reliable sniper) with mazin instead when it also comes to CFS style tournaments ? Another thing I've noticed is that BD has started taking in similar weaknesses to chinese teams on maps such as Port and Mexico (they always lose on this map) with Sub Base being their strongest map. it can't be by some coincidence that BD's strength on those maps started eroding when chinese teams kept constantly banning those maps in face of foreign teams ...
You have to also realize that CFPL is a totally different format when nearly every lower team is spanking PM (they were 2nd last during S11 regular season after KOWAI) and EVA in S13 which were beasts last year at CFS with one of them winning CFGI this year. Just because BD is good at CFPL does not necessarily mean that they'll be good at CFGI/CFS style tournaments but most of all their only good on 3 out of the 5 maps in total with international tournaments so they'll have massive hurdles regardless to overcome when their not on a favourable map just under half of the time ... (the vice versa applies to PM)
As for Boss not performing as good as EVA Team, I doubt EVA Team would've achieved any better results when they placed 4th at CFEL this year losing to Hero King (those guys also managed to beat Cherry Stars too) until Boss was the only team who was able to stop HK from being the true dark horses during that season. IMO, Boss's invite to CFGI was well deserved since they seeded 1st at the regular season of CFEL ...
Q9 did lose their stronger player but they were still able to compete very well at CFGI since they were the only team to take off maps from PM and they also had a very real chance of winning against them as well in the semifinals so that doesn't mean that they aren't strong either ...
AG made an arguably massive error in their map ban selection during the semifinals against Carbon since banning either Port or Mexico would've made exponentially more sense than banning Ankara which is a map that no chinese teams have ever lost in international tournaments yet I think ? I guess it's mostly because of a noob team from CFPL like how LGZGQ haunted them by by beating them at Ankara during CFPL S12 regular season ...
There's also no CFGI qualifiers either, that's only something that CFEU had since they were considered the 2nd best region at the time but that all changed when they started inviting top teams from each CFEL region instead with the extra slot being based off CFS performance last year ... -
The fact that all of you just took x0tek seriously or even gave him your attention for that matter just made me laugh more. Don't keep wasting your lives away like x0tek at 25, living with his mom, no irl friends, no job, no purpose in life, and lastly and most definitely a virgin.
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The fact that all of you just took x0tek seriously or even gave him your attention for that matter just made me laugh more. Don't keep wasting your lives away like x0tek at 25, living with his mom, no irl friends, no job, no purpose in life, and lastly and most definitely a virgin.
this man obsessed with the tek -
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michealdrkkt wrote: »
Domestic matchups =/= International matchups
Again, no they didn't play "bad" but the original post was that the competition here was much higher than it usually is. In the context of Chinese teams in international events, Q9 is much weaker than SV and AG is weaker as well
Doesn't matter if it was a domestic match up or not. EVA Team was not even close to good enough to be able to challenge any team at CFGI despite the fact that they coincidentally came in second place at CFS last year. I know for a fact that you played with STDX so there might be some potential bias to view EVA Team in a stronger light than necessary just so as to not underscore the achievement that you and your past team went through but I don't think EVA Team was the 2nd strongest at the time, I think that honour went to PM ? EVA Team was maybe the 3rd or even 4th strongest since they recently lost to BD during that time ? Boss was an improvement over EVA Team by a massive margin and I'm glad that their results of being 1st place for the past 3 CFEL seasons didn't go to waste. Just because Boss couldn't win many games like EVA Team did not account for the fact that either every other region was already well above them in skill (CN/PH) or had quite a few improvements to them (NA/BR) ...
Lady luck was on EVA Team's side when the RNG picked Mexico against HG during the CFS quarter finals but the jokes on HG since Mexico was probably their worst map by far LOLOL
AG's mess up was because of their miscalculation on their map ban pick and Q9 still faced instability from their roster change despite being in the lead to close it out but people need to stop galvanizing the past SV team as an unbeatable force when that is not the case since they lost CFSI 2017 but they also kept losing a bunch of maps afterwards too ... (SV is terrible at Port now with or without MZiN, BD plays the best Sub Base out of all teams in the world and Mexico is starting to become a toss up match so SV just can't keep dominating like they have in the past or unrealistically keep safeguarding chinese pride when some teams are better than them on a couple of maps)
Going towards the future map picks will be extremely more crucial than it ever was in the past when we take a look at CFGI group stage this year when NO TEAM had total command or control considering how hectic and close just about every game was with a BO1 ... (SV's fate could be potentially decided by their map picks just as much as their opposing teams rather than using their currently widely believed innate strength to control everything like they did in the past) -
wrote: »Doesn't matter if it was a domestic match up or not
Yes, it does. Domestic matchups don't perfectly correlate to international success because consistently playing against the same teams and knowing their tendencies and exactly how they play is wildly different from playing against teams who have playstyles that you've never played against and tendencies that you're not familiar with. Being good internationally is different from being good only against familiar teams in your own region. teamw0w was pretty dominant domestically in 2016 and we all saw how that played outEVA Team was not even close to good enough to be able to challenge any team at CFGI
That's an assumption based off of nothing. Obviously it's going to be an assumption no matter how you predict Eva would have done at CFGI, but given Boss' results at CFGI and Eva's results at CFS, it'd be more substantiated to predict that Eva could have done better. Or. at the very least, it's pretty much guaranteed the argument that "[they weren't] even close to good enough to be able to challenge any team at CFGI" is completely inaccuratedespite the fact that they coincidentally came in second place at CFS last year...I don't think EVA Team was the 2nd strongest at the time
They didn't "coincidentally" come in 2nd, they played great and beat great teams to get into the finals. And no disrespect to Europe at all, but you constantly talk about how they were the 2nd best region because of their CFS results, so how can you try to discredit Eva's run and say they don't deserve 2nd place when they beat better teams than Europe did in either of the years they made it to the finals? You can support the "2nd best region" or not for either of them, but at least be consistentAG's mess up was because of their miscalculation on their map ban pick
Their mess-up had very little to do with their veto's and more to do with them having a lack of strong leadership paired with a lack of discipline on their individual players. They won the first map 10-2 and they had a 5v3 at 8-5 on CT port, all they had to do that round and in future rounds was just play as a team and hold their setup but instead they started doing individual pushes trying to close the series out, which most likely wouldn't happen to a team with mzin (and that's not to discredit Carbon either, they played great to punish AG's mistakes, but even they would tell you that AG threw the series)people need to stop galvanizing the past SV team as an unbeatable force
No they're not unbeatable and no team in any sport is ever unbeatable, especially in bo1's. But in the playoffs of CFS their core is 12-0 in maps, and the other team has only won more than 6 rounds in 3 of those maps whereas they've won 5 or less rounds in 7 of those 12 maps. Or to expand a bit, the only CFS match their core has ever lost was to STDx last year. That's literally their only map loss, lol. Is it possible for them to be beaten in CFS? Of course. But until that happens, and likely even after that happens, they're the overwhelming favorites. But ultimately, like I said, the point that I was responding to was just that the talent of the teams at CFGI was much higher than any other events have been or will be, which is pretty evidently not true
Wanted to respond to that comment in particular, but yeah it's irrelevant to the thread so I'll stop -
I do agree this CFGI was the most stacked touney ever... Having no "cannon fodder" teams like South Korea or Indonesia really amps up the overall quality.
Anyway I'm guessing SV won't even make it to CFS this year, Mzin being absent wasn't their only problem... -
michealdrkkt wrote: »
Yes, it does. Domestic matchups don't perfectly correlate to international success because consistently playing against the same teams and knowing their tendencies and exactly how they play is wildly different from playing against teams who have playstyles that you've never played against and tendencies that you're not familiar with. Being good internationally is different from being good only against familiar teams in your own region. teamw0w was pretty dominant domestically in 2016 and we all saw how that played out
That's probably down to the fact that many regions including NA at the time weren't all that developed in terms of skill before 2017 and Europe was the only region thing that was remotely close enough to being competitive against the leading chinese teams but they were still distant second just like the rest of everyone else. Regardless, it does not excuse EVA Team's less than satisfactory performance on their last season of CFEL where they were almost on the brink of being eliminated into oblivion without ever having make it to the season play-offs. Better luck next time to EVA Team at the next season of CFEL once they are eliminated from the CFPL S13 entry stage and then we could maybe revisit this topic next time ?
x0tek's point of using recent performances to gauge strength rings more true than ever and just because EVA Team looked decent several months ago does not mean that they would be qualified to be competitive against top teams in the coming months either and we all saw how that turned when F3 most got burned after CFS 2016 ...That's an assumption based off of nothing. Obviously it's going to be an assumption no matter how you predict Eva would have done at CFGI, but given Boss' results at CFGI and Eva's results at CFS, it'd be more substantiated to predict that Eva could have done better. Or. at the very least, it's pretty much guaranteed the argument that "[they weren't] even close to good enough to be able to challenge any team at CFGI" is completely inaccurate
Your assumptions are as good as mine and using past performance as a predictor for future performances is arguably more flawed. EVA Team got 4TH(!) place in CFEL because they got spanked by a rookie team like Hero King, is that not supposed to be good enough to tell just how far behind they were ? They didn't lose to their long time rival like Boss but EVA Team got crapped on by a rookie team that straight 2-0'd them ...They didn't "coincidentally" come in 2nd, they played great and beat great teams to get into the finals. And no disrespect to Europe at all, but you constantly talk about how they were the 2nd best region because of their CFS results, so how can you try to discredit Eva's run and say they don't deserve 2nd place when they beat better teams than Europe did in either of the years they made it to the finals? You can support the "2nd best region" or not for either of them, but at least be consistent
I'm not denying that they didn't beat "great" teams to get into the finals but you have to factor in the the major circumstances leading up to their seeding by getting second place (they didn't face many powerhouses early on in the tournament aside from being rattled by PM in their first match up) and I don't constantly talk about Europe being the 2nd best region but they did constantly prove it with 3 major Smilegate tournaments in succession which were CFS 2015, CFGI 2016, CFS 2016 so I would at least assume that my statement is true given the fact that it held true for at least a year (EVA's case was not met with follow up success which is the major difference with your comparison) however, all that changed rapidly in 2017 when Europe is just too sad to be proud for ...
I am being consistent and judging a team's strength from just a single tournament with single elimination play-offs like CFS does not truly tell you who is the 2nd strongest. It can only ascertain who the strongest team is when there is a good scenario to be had that both the strongest and 2nd strongest team could easily meet up in the semifinals or even as far as the quarter finals so there's no way to determine from whichever branch the team is coming from is the 2nd strongest. Maybe if CFS hosted a "2nd place match" where the winner of the 3rd/4th place match faces off with loser of the grand finals and if EVA Team was able to defend their title then maybe I would be more accepting of them deserving to be the 2nd strongest but the lack of information means I can only infer on a case by case basis. Given that PM did conduct a much smoother match against your team at the time than EVA Team did, managed to beat EVA Team as well in the group stage but what's more is that all of that is met up with follow up success too like CFGI would lead me to believe that it was indeed PM who was the 2nd strongest team during CFS 2017 ...
No disrespect for what your team has achieved but I think you're painting EVA Team in better light than necessary and we can agree to disagree however, I can only imagine that it was PM who lost the most potential to show their strength at that time ...Their mess-up had very little to do with their veto's and more to do with them having a lack of strong leadership paired with a lack of discipline on their individual players. They won the first map 10-2 and they had a 5v3 at 8-5 on CT port, all they had to do that round and in future rounds was just play as a team and hold their setup but instead they started doing individual pushes trying to close the series out, which most likely wouldn't happen to a team with mzin (and that's not to discredit Carbon either, they played great to punish AG's mistakes, but even they would tell you that AG threw the series)
That's not true, it most definitely had to do with map picks considering chinese teams often feel very uncomfortable against foreign teams on both Port (no chinese teams are good at this map) and Mexico which are the most likely maps to be upset on. AG was absolutely senseless in banning Ankara when Q9 was able to uphold the sacred tradition that chinese teams are unbeatable on Ankara when facing up against extremely strong foreign teams like PM as well. Even if AG did mess up at Port, banning Mexico instead of Ankara could've very well either meant having a "near guaranteed victory" rather than a "contested map" or even a loss. AG obviously needs to get their insomnia sorted out with LGZGQ beating them on that map in S12. AG potentially throwing Port or Mexico was always a possibility but they instead didn't choose to ban either out ...
You truly think it was their leadership was at question at here ? Even, the professional CF player who has participated for 8 years straight in the competitive CF scene who was one of the VERY FIRST international champions when he won the WEM 2010 championship with his team which was either known as "Dragon AB" or "Liaoning" at the time but then next year they returned to become the WCG 2011 champions (bringing back memories here about 70kg, n1ce along with Linkin) and he also went on to become CFS S2 champions too with AG ?! (both Bean and Lsn were legends too back then as well)
You're trying to convince me that Even was somehow the problem when he 2nd fragged behind this whole entire tournament just behind ZQ ? You're not even going to mention that TF had a HUGE problem on being an impact with his later matches in the tournament when it likely cost his team down the line ? TF almost always just seems to disappoint whenever his team always needs him, it's no wonder why that guy can't win a single season of CFPL. Bean at this point is proven to be far more accomplished than TF ever was considering he carried his entire team throughout that tournament and I hope he can find a place in either AG or SV cause he has so much potential right after MZiN ...
As for a case of a lack of strong leadership, now that might actually be true for Q9 since they almost had it in the bag against PM in the semifinals when they were up by a massive margin on Black Widow to easily sweep a 2-0 victory so I don't know why Solo didn't get cheeky enough on experimenting with some sudden rushes on either bomb sites or even breaking through mid doors once in a while instead of letting PM stack up rounds but I guess their replacement dragged them down too much in the end ...No they're not unbeatable and no team in any sport is ever unbeatable, especially in bo1's. But in the playoffs of CFS their core is 12-0 in maps, and the other team has only won more than 6 rounds in 3 of those maps whereas they've won 5 or less rounds in 7 of those 12 maps. Or to expand a bit, the only CFS match their core has ever lost was to STDx last year. That's literally their only map loss, lol. Is it possible for them to be beaten in CFS? Of course. But until that happens, and likely even after that happens, they're the overwhelming favorites. But ultimately, like I said, the point that I was responding to was just that the talent of the teams at CFGI was much higher than any other events have been or will be, which is pretty evidently not true
Wanted to respond to that comment in particular, but yeah it's irrelevant to the thread so I'll stop
SV has already proved that their not the best at Port so that's a guaranteed map cut off on being able to dominate on and then we have BD who are obvious killers on Sub Base so that's already two maps that they can't go around freely dominating on whenever they want. Then we have Mexico which is likely toss up territory at that point where AG is as nearly good as they are. The only maps that SV has left that they can obviously dominate on is Ankara where just about every chinese team can beat any other foreign team so that's nothing special or specific to SV along with a solid Black Window track record. Literally, SV is only guaranteed a solid victory in just 2/5 maps ... (SV has to make sure that they totally ban Port or sometimes Mexico unless they straight up know the teams that are so bad at the latter like BD)
The talent for SOME teams have definitely being higher than they were before and that is absolutely true since CFGI 2018 set quite a few records historical highs IMO. PM has now won the coveted 1st place like they've always wanted for YEARS, Carbon was able to reclaim 2nd place glory once again, BD/Boss are just trucking along fine with some of their won highlights. The chinese may not have set records or anything but their strong as hell regardless. You can't deny that the BASELINE for skill at CFGI has been set higher than compared to before in previous competitions ... -
All 3 of us from STDx that are now in Carbon had a similar conversation about CFS vs CFGI while we were at CFGI. We all realized that CFGI definitely brings much tighter competition and that there just aren't any lackluster teams at CFGI like there are at CFS. Every team that attended CFGI were great.
In regards to Eva vs Boss, I would definitely say that Boss's playstyle works a lot better than Eva's. When we played against Eva in CFS, we should have had a better chance of winning against them based off of how individualistic they played, but we let ourselves get surprised by the same tactics over and over. I can see why Boss beat Eva for sure and I personally think that Boss is the stronger team and would have more widespread success and tight games against strong teams on a much wider variety of maps than Eva.
PM in CFS is not as strong as PM in CFGI and I would still say that they were the 2nd strongest team at CFS, but they were just unfortunate to play against SV before the finals and, at that time, they were still unable to beat any Chinese teams until they picked up RGxM. RGxM just fits with their team so much better than Kart ever did and seems to unlock something in them. This is the first time PM has really been able to beat any Chinese teams in a match.
I don't think anyone can disrespect BD by saying they were weak at CFGI. They performed pretty damn well and, honestly, just got screwed by us because we played insanely aggro and caught them off-guard. I made the call that we should do that because I didn't think we had as high of a chance of winning if we played more passively as usual. If we didn't 10-3 them then they would have made it through to the semi-finals and it would have been a fantastic match between them and PM. To me, BD is one of the only teams CF has that can play a multitude of playstyles very well (this is why they're great against Chinese teams), but I had a feeling aggressiveness would work against them because it's so unexpected and I know that they considered us an easy win. Therefore, their biggest weakness is underestimating teams. I don't know why anyone would underestimate any teams at these events, but it's a huge mistake. Just like we honestly underestimated Eva at CFS.
I know why AG banned Ankara against us and I thought it would be obvious to everyone. They hadn't seen us play on Ankara yet and they didn't want any surprises. They were uber-confident that they, after studying us, could beat us on the other maps that we had already played in CFGI. They played too confident on Port and we were able to catch up, but after the score got closer they played less individual and still ended up losing. They didn't seem to know how to counter our change on T side and that worked heavily in our favor. Our best map is usually Ankara (when we aren't falling apart in the finals) and I don't know if we would have won or lost, but I think they still should have concentrated less on countering our playstyle on maps that we have already played and instead just try to get their strongest maps.
Also, I don't think AG has leadership problems. They have had no issues winning the 2nd most championships (under SV) of all Chinese teams with the current leader that they have. They had such a stacked roster in CFGI! TF was the only one that you could say was a weak link because of his performance (or lack thereof) in CFGI, but even he is a multi-champion. It's virtually impossible to see every mistake that your team is making in a match until you watch it back afterwards. Even Mzin, the godfather of CF, has lost plenty of games that he could have won with a simple switch-up.
I still think SV is the strongest CF team of all time (with Mzin), but even without them, CFGI 2018 was still the most stacked tournament I've ever been apart or watched without a doubt. I definitely don't think that SV is unbeatable though, instead they are just the most consistent team of all time. This wouldn't have been a guaranteed win for them at all especially with AG, BD, and an improved PM in attendance. You also can't forget us, Carbon! As a region, we have had the most success against Chinese teams and a nice little 1 out of 1 map victory against SV. -
CFGI wasn't fun to watch bro .a lot of throws , a lot of players underperforming such as TF or EVEN , which u normally see dominating teams. Even bevore the Tournament started i said that PM will win , cause nobody of the teams are stable like PM is .They also show great performances and are a consistent team. Unfortunate they had to play SV in the Semis at CFS , i agree on that one . Nothing to take away from your victory against AG , but i think AG shouldve closed the Match against you , but they threw so hard ....(TF pushing Port BL spawn with an AWP). I see CFGI as a Practice Tournament to see where Teams stand before CFS 2017 ...Last Year's CFGI , TGF also looked good because TF and ChongEr were so nuts and then they didnt qualify for CFS ... all im saying is in the End CFS is what matters...
PENTA.KREEDZ -
bAZiNGAK93 wrote: »CFGI wasn't fun to watch bro .a lot of throws , a lot of players underperforming such as TF or EVEN , which u normally see dominating teams. Even bevore the Tournament started i said that PM will win , cause nobody of the teams are stable like PM is .They also show great performances and are a consistent team. Unfortunate they had to play SV in the Semis at CFS , i agree on that one . Nothing to take away from your victory against AG , but i think AG shouldve closed the Match against you , but they threw so hard ....(TF pushing Port BL spawn with an AWP). I see CFGI as a Practice Tournament to see where Teams stand before CFS 2017 ...Last Year's CFGI , TGF also looked good because TF and ChongEr were so nuts and then they didnt qualify for CFS ... all im saying is in the End CFS is what matters...
PENTA.KREEDZ
As far as I remember, TGF weren't allowed to play together for CFS qualifier because of contractual obligations, so that's a moot point. In the end, of course CFS is all that matters because of the steep increase in prize money, but that doesn't take anything away from CFGI being a competitive tournament. I agree there were a lot of "throws", but that could also be seen as the other team waking up and taking control (i.e. PM vs Q9). On our T side we finally realized that they had just been countering us all along and played more fast paced and aggressively. They saw that and thought they could still run up mid like they did in Port against us the first time and PM also did in Port against us in group stage to flank us on our takes. You can call it a mistake and a throw, but when 2 teams did it against us to high success in both of our Port games previously, why would AG think it wouldn't work? We finally talked and figured out that was our main weakness on T side Port and made sure that they couldn't do that.
Also, I think tight games are much more entertaining to watch than one sided affairs, so to me CFGI was a great tournament to watch. Fans of all teams had to have a lot of fun watching their team have such close games.
Edit: Yeah, CFGI was TGF's final tournament before they went to their respective teams. I remember talking about it when I was shoutcasting those games. Then in CFS qualifier they couldn't play together because of contractual obligations to their other teams. -
As far as I remember, TGF weren't allowed to play together for CFS qualifier because of contractual obligations, so that's a moot point. In the end, of course CFS is all that matters because of the steep increase in prize money, but that doesn't take anything away from CFGI being a competitive tournament. I agree there were a lot of "throws", but that could also be seen as the other team waking up and taking control (i.e. PM vs Q9). On our T side we finally realized that they had just been countering us all along and played more fast paced and aggressively. They saw that and thought they could still run up mid like they did in Port against us the first time and PM also did in Port against us in group stage to flank us on our takes. You can call it a mistake and a throw, but when 2 teams did it against us to high success in both of our Port games previously, why would AG think it wouldn't work? We finally talked and figured out that was our main weakness on T side Port and made sure that they couldn't do that.
Also, I think tight games are much more entertaining to watch than one sided affairs, so to me CFGI was a great tournament to watch. Fans of all teams had to have a lot of fun watching their team have such close games.
Edit: Yeah, CFGI was TGF's final tournament before they went to their respective teams. I remember talking about it when I was shoutcasting those games. Then in CFS qualifier they couldn't play together because of contractual obligations to their other teams.
Actually they were forced to reform TGF to play the cfs qualifiers due to contract obligations... They reached the finals but lost to HG. The game is up on Youtube I think, "HG Longzhu vs TGF @ NEST 2017" -
Actually they were forced to reform TGF to play the cfs qualifiers due to contract obligations... They reached the finals but lost to HG. The game is up on Youtube I think, "HG Longzhu vs TGF @ NEST 2017"
Are you sure? Didn't HG beat 5G in the finals?
Edit: Ah, 5G beat TGF in semis. Regardless though, it's still with the VIP rules and doesn't have any affect on what I was saying. -
I’m glad we can have these discussions. I’m gonna chime in with one point:
This was pretty much objectively the best international CF tournament of all time. Crazy comebacks? Check. Crazy individual performances? Check. Amazing upsets? Check.
Not only is this the first major international tournament not going to the Chinese, this was a phenomenal showcase from PM, BD, and Carbon. Even AG had some dominant performances!
I feel like the “”this tournament sucked”” comments are pure salt at not being invited -
I’m glad we can have these discussions. I’m gonna chime in with one point:
This was pretty much objectively the best international CF tournament of all time. Crazy comebacks? Check. Crazy individual performances? Check. Amazing upsets? Check.
Not only is this the first major international tournament not going to the Chinese, this was a phenomenal showcase from PM, BD, and Carbon. Even AG had some dominant performances!
I feel like the “”this tournament sucked”” comments are pure salt at not being invited
LEL, any professional European players only has themselves to blame for not performing at CFS when it mattered most for future invites. Even the Russians were more deserving of the invited than they were ... -
I’m glad we can have these discussions. I’m gonna chime in with one point:
This was pretty much objectively the best international CF tournament of all time. Crazy comebacks? Check. Crazy individual performances? Check. Amazing upsets? Check.
Not only is this the first major international tournament not going to the Chinese, this was a phenomenal showcase from PM, BD, and Carbon. Even AG had some dominant performances!
I feel like the “”this tournament sucked”” comments are pure salt at not being invited
For me personally it wasnt the best tournament. CFS 2017 was way better bcs Carbon went far into the Tournament which kinda surprised me, EVA surprising alot of ppl , SV vs Macta (was a sick game with REVENGE having some huge plays 5k , 4k on BW ).
And bro , this not a major tournament , its an invitational like IEM , or Manila/Vietnam. And brazilians are always good against Chinese teams , so i wasnt surprised that they won against Q9. And tbh it was obvious that PM would win CFGI , the only way i didnt see them winning would've been if the players of AG had some crazy performances , but we saw that it wasnt the case.
Crazy comebacks? Check. Crazy individual performances? Check. Amazing upsets? Check
You also had that in CFS 2017
And you trying to be funny with your comment " I feel like the “”this tournament sucked”” comments are pure salt at not being invited " isnt working , obv we didnt deserve an invite as a region after CFS but thats why im speaking from a Spectator Perspective about the Tournament not being so sick as last years CFGI or CFS 2017 -
CFS 2017 was definitely one of the more uneventful CFS tournaments. Aside from the upset that STDX pulled off in the group stage, nearly the rest of the tournament became a snore-fest very quickly. Just about everybody knew which teams to keep their eyes on which were BD, PM, SV and maybe to a lesser extent EVA Team as well because eventually their region (2nd most popular CF region) had to start somewhat performing upto their potential along with the fact that they got strong enough just in time for CFS ... (beating Boss at the NF, taking a map off of both BD and SV during CFSI meant they were very well prepared but more so than people give credit for)
There were hardly any close games to be had at CFS last year compared this year at CFGI and PM was moderately stronger than they were back then no thanks to RGxM (RGM from TNC Pro Team at CFGI 2017 for those who don't know) but it was absolutely far out from a certainty that they would come out on top when the team that they struggled against most (Q9) had a notable handicap to work with since they lost a player due to contractual obligations ...
CFS 2017 was practically a one sided affair compared to past CFS tournaments. CFS 2015 and CFS 2016 IMO were easily the best out of both competitiveness and among other surprises for viewership or spectating but CFGI 2018 on the other hand was on another level of full of on edge matches with at least 8/15 group stage matches being either 10/8 or going into overtime (I think this maybe a new record too) and there weren't a bunch of weak teams standing in the way like CFS 2017 ... (F3, iNs, KOWAI, LK, ruL and XcN)
The only disappointing thing that I can think of about CFGI 2018 were the finals where the point leading upto it wasn't anywhere near as good ... -
85% of the maps in CFS 2017 were blowouts (4+ round differential)
33% of the maps in CFGI were blowouts.
Overtime was 300% more likely in CFGI.
In all of CFS, 2 upsets occurred - in CFGI, 7 did, with 6 fewer matches played.
I felt like CFGI was way more exciting, even though the "peak skill" was a bit lower, with no SV and a clearly uncoordinated Chinese front
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