Let's get real for a second.

Now I got big feeling that this thread will get locked or either deleted but I gotta post about this cause it's gotten pretty annoying now.

Not ONE and yes I said ONE Report I have submitted from 2014 to 2017 has been dealt with it.. Now I am one of those people who defend the system from people who keep attacking it but at this point I totally give up on reporting people it takes out my own time and it does nothing.

Now I even want to play some Ranked ( and if you know you know ) and got some solid evidence of Hacking within seconds on the match so it's not like you gotta go through 5 minutes of the Replay to find anything and I reported 4-5 people from that one match now it's been 2 weeks from the day I reported the people and yet I have seen their HSR taken away so I can tell nothing has happened ( Fun Fact: One of them was Rank Gold in S&D Rank and now is Platinum Ranked so... yeah GG on that mode ) So at this point what's is the reason for me to Report anyone if I know nothing will happen and I feel like I can perfectly say that if I have reports from 2014 still not answered.

Now you may want to jump into this thread to say " Oh but my reports get answered, it must just be you. " I couldn't care if your reports are being dealt with lol that's not the reason of this thread, it's about my reports not been answered with solid evidence cause I won't speak for others on this and if no reports were being dealt with I could see many more threads with this kind of topic so I am only talking about myself here.

Now now you may want to say " Don't you know they are busy making events, being new content and being active on the forums, give them a break. " Well I think Reports goes under the things they should be looking into and if I don't see that any of my reports are being looked into then I think I have the right reason to write this up cause yeah they are doing a bunch of stuff other than answering reports but if reports are under the work they should be dealing with then it should be the work that they are dealing with.

Now now now you may want to say " Why don't you submit a ticket on this issue? " Well that's been an issue itself with many one ticket actually being skipped over and I got proof on that and that was an serious ticket but anywho if I were to post an ticket I would just get some Robot Answer and that's wouldn't help wouldn't it.

I would post like proof and stuff but I think that would break some kind of rule or something like that and then they have a good good reason to close the thread down or delete it so I will just keep it basic with words and reasons.

( Remember if your going to post on this thread make sure you are not reposting anything in Yellow Text, it wouldn't be the smartest idea! )
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Comments

  • Now I got big feeling that this thread will get locked or either deleted but I gotta post about this cause it's gotten pretty annoying now.

    Not ONE and yes I said ONE Report I have submitted from 2014 to 2017 has been dealt with it.. Now I am one of those people who defend the system from people who keep attacking it but at this point I totally give up on reporting people it takes out my own time and it does nothing.

    Now I even want to play some Ranked ( and if you know you know ) and got some solid evidence of Hacking within seconds on the match so it's not like you gotta go through 5 minutes of the Replay to find anything and I reported 4-5 people from that one match now it's been 2 weeks from the day I reported the people and yet I have seen their HSR taken away so I can tell nothing has happened ( Fun Fact: One of them was Rank Gold in S&D Rank and now is Platinum Ranked so... yeah GG on that mode ) So at this point what's is the reason for me to Report anyone if I know nothing will happen and I feel like I can perfectly say that if I have reports from 2014 still not answered.

    Now you may want to jump into this thread to say " Oh but my reports get answered, it must just be you. " I couldn't care if your reports are being dealt with lol that's not the reason of this thread, it's about my reports not been answered with solid evidence cause I won't speak for others on this and if no reports were being dealt with I could see many more threads with this kind of topic so I am only talking about myself here.

    Now now you may want to say " Don't you know they are busy making events, being new content and being active on the forums, give them a break. " Well I think Reports goes under the things they should be looking into and if I don't see that any of my reports are being looked into then I think I have the right reason to write this up cause yeah they are doing a bunch of stuff other than answering reports but if reports are under the work they should be dealing with then it should be the work that they are dealing with.

    Now now now you may want to say " Why don't you submit a ticket on this issue? " Well that's been an issue itself with many one ticket actually being skipped over and I got proof on that and that was an serious ticket but anywho if I were to post an ticket I would just get some Robot Answer and that's wouldn't help wouldn't it.

    I would post like proof and stuff but I think that would break some kind of rule or something like that and then they have a good good reason to close the thread down or delete it so I will just keep it basic with words and reasons.

    ( Remember if your going to post on this thread make sure you are not reposting anything in Yellow Text, it wouldn't be the smartest idea! )

    So this is what happens. You play with a hacker or two, save replay, go through the trouble of reporting them and then wait a couple of days to see that they're banned or not. But it doesn't matter even if they get banned cuz they just go on and make a new account in 10 seconds. Guess what, in 2017 Crossfire.z8games.com is the only website in the world which lets you create accounts without email authentication. So you can create hundreds of accounts with random and fake email ids for the purpose of hacking.

    Secondly, most of these hackers that I've observed are good english speaking, non-egys. These are actually some disgruntled players whose real accounts were banned somehow or they don't have money to buy zp or vips and people don't share their vips with them. I say this because I've observed that these speed hackers tend to destroy vip players' gameplay more than others. Of course the huge majority of them are egys. But the point is that reporting is pointless unless the hacks are patched more frequently.

    So the smart thing to do here would be to either quit the game until hacks are patched. Cuz going through the trouble of reporting a couple dozens of hackers is just pure waste of time.
  • Pooyan wrote: »
    So this is what happens. You play with a hacker or two, save replay, go through the trouble of reporting them and then wait a couple of days to see that they're banned or not. But it doesn't matter even if they get banned cuz they just go on and make a new account in 10 seconds. Guess what, in 2017 Crossfire.z8games.com is the only website in the world which lets you create accounts without email authentication. So you can create hundreds of accounts with random and fake email ids for the purpose of hacking.

    Secondly, most of these hackers that I've observed are good english speaking, non-egys. These are actually some disgruntled players whose real accounts were banned somehow or they don't have money to buy zp or vips and people don't share their vips with them. I say this because I've observed that these speed hackers tend to destroy vip players' gameplay more than others. Of course the huge majority of them are egys. But the point is that reporting is pointless unless the hacks are patched more frequently.

    So the smart thing to do here would be to either quit the game until hacks are patched. Cuz going through the trouble of reporting a couple dozens of hackers is just pure waste of time.

    Well when would the hacks be patched? Next year? The after that? Or the year after that? Or... You see I don't think hacks can just be fully patched so by the time they do patch it it's only a matter of time until they come back and then we are waiting on another patch which could be in another 3 years.

    If only they just made making accounts more harder by IP banning or something that would make accounts creations a bit harder than it is right now... Poor poor CF NA/UK it's about to kill itself if things don't get better anytime soon.
  • Reporting is basically their anti because the one we currently have is good for giving error messages. There is literally tons of videos on YouTube ones that are very recent about the cheats we're running into and they can easily reproduce it and try to find a solution for it but been months now, they basically rely on reports.

    Ip banning has loop holes but adding verifications to new accounts and restrictions stated on another thread seems the best way.
  • oSasuke*** wrote: »
    Reporting is basically their anti because the one we currently have is good for giving error messages. There is literally tons of videos on YouTube ones that are very recent about the cheats we're running into and they can easily reproduce it and try to find a solution for it but been months now, they basically rely on reports.

    Ip banning has loop holes but adding verifications to new accounts and restrictions stated on another thread seems the best way.

    You know these GM's don't got time to watch YT videos + I doubt they know anything about how hacks are coded ( Not trying to be rude.. ) that's more on the people behind the Anti-Cheat Software but they could surely try to do something about the problems by working closer with the CF Verisons that they are with but then again they must be busy.

    I doubt most of these hackers are smart enough to get around IP Banning like if I recall some hackers use their hacks in their local Internet Café and if it's mean not allowing anyone to play CF in that Internet Café then so be it lol. But yeah I think most hackers pay/download their hacks off somewhere online and know nothing about how it's been crafted so them knowing how to get around IP Banning... I can't see it, like did you see them struggling to get back into CF when the recent update came up? Priceless. They can't even follow simple steps without screaming that it's not working for them.
  • Since day one this game has been infested with such things, They tried to eliminate that but not hard enough, They basically don't care and even if they do they're not doing enough effort, Try to move on from this game because it'll " NEVER " be better, It has been like this for 8 years and it will always be like this, Nothing to be done about it, The only one who's torturing himself is you, Staying in a sinking ship won't take you anywhere near the shore, it'll take you down with it. Everyone on here will eventually figure that out.
  • Pooyan wrote: »
    So this is what happens. You play with a hacker or two, save replay, go through the trouble of reporting them and then wait a couple of days to see that they're banned or not. But it doesn't matter even if they get banned cuz they just go on and make a new account in 10 seconds. Guess what, in 2017 Crossfire.z8games.com is the only website in the world which lets you create accounts without email authentication. So you can create hundreds of accounts with random and fake email ids for the purpose of hacking.

    Secondly, most of these hackers that I've observed are good english speaking, non-egys. These are actually some disgruntled players whose real accounts were banned somehow or they don't have money to buy zp or vips and people don't share their vips with them. I say this because I've observed that these speed hackers tend to destroy vip players' gameplay more than others. Of course the huge majority of them are egys. But the point is that reporting is pointless unless the hacks are patched more frequently.

    So the smart thing to do here would be to either quit the game until hacks are patched. Cuz going through the trouble of reporting a couple dozens of hackers is just pure waste of time.


    From 04/09 to 10/09, CFBR's anti cheat banned 1243 hackers. From 04/09 to 10/09 our anti cheat did absolutely nothing.
  • What exactly are you trying to say from this thread? that the GMs don't ban hackers? (proven that they do)
    Does it take a while for them to view the reports? yes since they get loads of them and they're only a few.
    Your reports not being checked? Send a ticket and explain it to them.

    Our anticheat is complete garbage so I won't disagree with you on that.
  • Since day one this game has been infested with such things, They tried to eliminate that but not hard enough, They basically don't care and even if they do they're not doing enough effort, Try to move on from this game because it'll " NEVER " be better, It has been like this for 8 years and it will always be like this, Nothing to be done about it, The only one who's torturing himself is you, Staying in a sinking ship won't take you anywhere near the shore, it'll take you down with it. Everyone on here will eventually figure that out.

    That was a bit dark and deep... It's just Crossfire. calm down lol.

    Well yeah I could run away and feel nothing but if I enjoy the game then I would like to see these issues fixed. There has been an difference in the hacking issue from 2012-2014 to 2015-2017 in a good way but we are slowly stepping into that 2012 era that we don't want to visit again so I know they could simply fix their problems if they truely wanted to but right now it just seems like they are going to run away from it until they realise it's hurting their market...

    But ayyy who's ready for the next VIP?
    Pyrex00 wrote: »
    What exactly are you trying to say from this thread? that the GMs don't ban hackers? (proven that they do)
    Does it take a while for them to view the reports? yes since they get loads of them and they're only a few.
    Your reports not being checked? Send a ticket and explain it to them.

    Our anticheat is complete garbage so I won't disagree with you on that.


    Looks like someone didn't read the RED AND YELLOW TEXT .... Don't come here trying to waste my time please. Couldn't care if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing with me, you clearly didn't read through my post.
    iDupree_ wrote: »
    From 04/09 to 10/09, CFBR's anti cheat banned 1243 hackers. From 04/09 to 10/09 our anti cheat did absolutely nothing.

    That's quite intresting, even if 1243 isn't that many banned ( depending on how many hackers they actually get ) it sure beats 0. But if that's truely the 6 day stats of hackers being banned from the Anti Cheat then it's quite pleasing.
  • That was a bit dark and deep... It's just Crossfire. calm down lol.

    Well yeah I could run away and feel nothing but if I enjoy the game then I would like to see these issues fixed. There has been an difference in the hacking issue from 2012-2014 to 2015-2017 in a good way but we are slowly stepping into that 2012 era that we don't want to visit again so I know they could simply fix their problems if they truely wanted to but right now it just seems like they are going to run away from it until they realise it's hurting their market...

    But ayyy who's ready for the next VIP?




    I used to buy VIPs and charge ZP on this game, and wasted so much money on it, and now i do feel bankrupted because i'm not getting a good service in return what do you expect?
    And yeah watch this thread getting closed for ranting, because they can't face their problems they'd rather infract you for saying the truth, because you're driving players away from the game with the " negativity " this thread is causing. and not their crappy service and servers.

    Alas who's ready for the next VIP as you said.... sigh..
  • Pyrex00 wrote: »
    What exactly are you trying to say from this thread? that the GMs don't ban hackers? (proven that they do)
    Does it take a while for them to view the reports? yes since they get loads of them and they're only a few.
    Your reports not being checked? Send a ticket and explain it to them.

    Our anticheat is complete garbage so I won't disagree with you on that.
    Most of the hackers use low ranked accounts. I think that they should update the anti hacking software as it will solve the root of all hacking problems.
  • I used to buy VIPs and charge ZP on this game, and wasted so much money on it, and now i do feel bankrupted because i'm not getting a good service in return what do you expect?
    And yeah watch this thread getting closed for ranting, because they can't face their problems they'd rather infract you for saying the truth, because you're driving players away from the game with the " negativity " this thread is causing. and not their crappy service and servers.

    Alas who's ready for the next VIP as you said.... sigh..

    Well that's kinda the reason why I am following the thread and replying once someone posts just incase I can try to deal with it first lol. The thread isn't as bad as I thought it would be, it's not like people are not with me on the hacking issue so it's alright. Hopefully the thread doesn't get closed though it's the players that need to speak about these issues cause the players are the one keeping this game alive and these players are the one paying the Z8 HQ electric bills at the end of the day. ( And Lost Saga don't act like i've fogotten about you people down there *wink* )
    olpers wrote: »
    Most of the hackers use low ranked accounts. I think that they should update the anti hacking software as it will solve the root of all hacking problems.

    Yep, it needs to be updated and be able to clean out the hackers at a faster pace. The quicker it get's updates, the quicker hackers will get bored having to keep on coding new hacks to play with which equals.... LESS HACKERS. I am so passing CF Maths.
  • That's quite intresting, even if 1243 isn't that many banned ( depending on how many hackers they actually get ) it sure beats 0. But if that's truely the 6 day stats of hackers being banned from the Anti Cheat then it's quite pleasing.

    CFBR gives you a site that tells you how many hackers got banned. They even give you a list with all of their IGNs.
  • iDupree_ wrote: »
    CFBR gives you a site that tells you how many hackers got banned. They even give you a list with all of their IGNs.

    CFBR sounds lit.. They know what they are doing down there and even feeling bragging about it cause they know what they are doing is great. Hopefully soon we get something like this but if they don't update the Anti-Cheat it would just be empty and have one big giant 0 which wouldn't look good for Z8 lol. Anywho GG CFBR getting your stuff together keep it up down there.

    Edit:

    Just cause I can... at least we ain't like CFEU that place is a total mess and IS actually dying lol... Sorry not sorry.
  • Most of the old timers would remember and agree with me on this. When we had Saidin as sort of the only GM until he was fired, people would whine and accuse him and put all the crap onto him about all the problems this game was going through in those days. This was done by the same people who now say 'bring Saidin back' and stuff like that. But when he got fired and this game sunk too many levels down, we came to realize that that poor guy was better than what people made him to look. And when we had xtrap, people would keep crying for years about how bad it was, about how easy people bypassed it and stuff. But when it was replaced by something ten times worse, we come to realize that it was actually working pretty good in those days.

    I don't know where people pull this bs from, but we've had pretty long stretches of no hacks in previous years. So saying that the game will always have hackers is just bs. In the time of xtrap, it would take a couple weeks for it to detect and patch hacks, and this would give us a couple weeks of hack-free gameplay until the hackers released new hacks. But the current anticheat has not yet shown any usability of that sort as far as I've observed it.

    Secondly, hackers create hacks by finding and changing values in game engine to achieve the desired hack result. Smart gaming companies patch those values and codes so that any external program trying to change those values gets detected and the user subsequently gets banned automatically. That's the rough explanation of how it used to be during xtrap. But now it seems that the current people in charge of these things haven't got a clue on how to tackle these situations.
    Hopefully soon we get something like this

    Actually iirc CFNA was the first version to have this feature of having ban list where it showed the igns of the players they banned each day. But perhaps some genius in the SGW thought it was too harsh or whatever and got it removed permanently.
  • Looks like someone didn't read the RED AND YELLOW TEXT .... Don't come here trying to waste my time please. Couldn't care if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing with me, you clearly didn't read through my post.
    Don't tell me what to do :mad: lol
  • Pooyan wrote: »
    Most of the old timers would remember and agree with me on this. When we had Saidin as sort of the only GM until he was fired, people would whine and accuse him and put all the crap onto him about all the problems this game was going through in those days. This was done by the same people who now say 'bring Saidin back' and stuff like that. But when he got fired and this game sunk too many levels down, we came to realize that that poor guy was better than what people made him to look. And when we had xtrap, people would keep crying for years about how bad it was, about how easy people bypassed it and stuff. But when it was replaced by something ten times worse, we come to realize that it was actually working pretty good in those days.

    I don't know where people pull this bs from, but we've had pretty long stretches of no hacks in previous years. So saying that the game will always have hackers is just bs. In the time of xtrap, it would take a couple weeks for it to detect and patch hacks, and this would give us a couple weeks of hack-free gameplay until the hackers released new hacks. But the current anticheat has not yet shown any usability of that sort as far as I've observed it.

    Secondly, hackers create hacks by finding and changing values in game engine to achieve the desired hack result. Smart gaming companies patch those values and codes so that any external program trying to change those values gets detected and the user subsequently gets banned automatically. That's the rough explanation of how it used to be during xtrap. But now it seems that the current people in charge of these things haven't got a clue on how to tackle these situations.

    Dude, don't be saying stuff like this like are you trying to get this thread locked down? If you actually want to get your words out just don't come here talking about some underground stuff.

    Besides that Xtrap was trash and will always be remembered as trash but whatever we got now is just super trash. BUT I feel like both of them follow the same issue of not being updated at a fast rate I think if ANY of these two were updated a lot then it would be of been fine cause when Xtrap was updated It done its job and clean out some hackers for a while just like the thing we got now. This Anti-Cheat just hasn't been tweaked yet so it will always remains as trash until it gets some updates and that should come monthly at least following with out monthly updates.

    Let's just hope someone comes through and says " I can fix that " and somehow makes CF feel perfect with no RANDOM FPS DROPS and NO HACKERS but in no way can we say Xtrap was a far better product cause at the end of the day it was still pretty terrible doing it's job and only did something like every one year.
  • Yep, it needs to be updated and be able to clean out the hackers at a faster pace. The quicker it get's updates, the quicker hackers will get bored having to keep on coding new hacks to play with which equals.... LESS HACKERS. I am so passing CF Maths.
    Exactly. The fact that almost all of the hackers don't know how to make hack and they just download it from random sites just add weight to your point.
  • olpers wrote: »
    Exactly. The fact that almost all of the hackers don't know how to make hack and they just download it from random sites just add weight to your point.

    Oh yes yes yes it does. The fact that people are easily able to get hacks without even trying makes the Anti-Cheat look like a joke ( well it is but anywho. ) It would make my day to see people paying like $10 for hacks just to get banned like legit that would put a smile on my face just like when people Pre-Order a VIP without watching/knowing anything about the weapon and then complaining about it later on wanting it to have some kind of buff... Have I gone too far?
  • Let me just step in and say that as long as you guys keep it civil, continue being respectful to each other, not turning on other players for having their say, not insulting people for their language barrier, and not breaking any other forum rules, there's no reason a thread would get shut down just because it's a complaint.

    Keep it civil and you guys are free to continue this discussion. Any insults, bashing, or whatever else disrespectful to another player is what will immediately get this thread shut down.
  • Oh yes yes yes it does. The fact that people are easily able to get hacks without even trying makes the Anti-Cheat look like a joke ( well it is but anywho. ) It would make my day to see people paying like $10 for hacks just to get banned like legit that would put a smile on my face just like when people Pre-Order a VIP without watching/knowing anything about the weapon and then complaining about it later on wanting it to have some kind of buff... Have I gone too far?
    Hahaha :D. You are stating the facts, bruh.
  • Oh yes yes yes it does. The fact that people are easily able to get hacks without even trying makes the Anti-Cheat look like a joke ( well it is but anywho. ) It would make my day to see people paying like $10 for hacks just to get banned like legit that would put a smile on my face just like when people Pre-Order a VIP without watching/knowing anything about the weapon and then complaining about it later on wanting it to have some kind of buff... Have I gone too far?

    Wow I sorta feel offended here......... then again it's a delay and you can't really tell on video :P when the VIP axe got released and people found out it did 80 on legs was hilarious to see their outrage on forums lmao
  • Pyrex00 wrote: »
    Wow I sorta feel offended here......... then again it's a delay and you can't really tell on video :P when the VIP axe got released and people found out it did 80 on legs was hilarious to see their outrage on forums lmao

    Seeing people on the forums angry about an VIP/BM Weapon is funny but lowkey hurts cause it is their money afterall... unless we talking about them M12s.

    But anywho let's not get off track on this thread.
  • Dude, don't be saying stuff like this like are you trying to get this thread locked down? If you actually want to get your words out just don't come here talking about some underground stuff.

    Besides that Xtrap was trash and will always be remembered as trash but whatever we got now is just super trash. BUT I feel like both of them follow the same issue of not being updated at a fast rate I think if ANY of these two were updated a lot then it would be of been fine cause when Xtrap was updated It done its job and clean out some hackers for a while just like the thing we got now. This Anti-Cheat just hasn't been tweaked yet so it will always remains as trash until it gets some updates and that should come monthly at least following with out monthly updates.

    Let's just hope someone comes through and says " I can fix that " and somehow makes CF feel perfect with no RANDOM FPS DROPS and NO HACKERS but in no way can we say Xtrap was a far better product cause at the end of the day it was still pretty terrible doing it's job and only did something like every one year.

    You aren't really brightest in the bunch. Tell me how are you going to have a discussion if you keep telling every other poster to not say what you don't want to hear? How old are you, 8? kids these days ffs
  • Pyrex00 wrote: »
    Wow I sorta feel offended here......... then again it's a delay and you can't really tell on video :P when the VIP axe got released and people found out it did 80 on legs was hilarious to see their outrage on forums lmao
    People were angry about the VIP axe because in other versions it did 100 to legs. The VIP-DE is actually just as good as the OB version except it has a slower fire rate and the duel storm thing is basically a wasted ability.
  • Pooyan wrote: »
    You aren't really brightest in the bunch. Tell me how are you going to have a discussion if you keep telling every other poster to not say what you don't want to hear? How old are you, 8? kids these days ffs

    Hold up one second. When did having to talk about Sadlin leaving have to do WITH ANYTHING ABOUT HACKING? Nah please tell me why he had to be included into this and why you couldn't just straight up only talking about Xtrap.

    Kids these days ffs. Always gotta try to start some trouble for no reasons but just to look cool I guess.

    Edit:

    Actually hold up, I ain't told anyone what they can and cannot say except for you cause it didn't relate to this post at all.
  • iAnarchy wrote: »
    People were angry about the VIP axe because in other versions it did 100 to legs. The VIP-DE is actually just as good as the OB version except it has a slower fire rate and the duel storm thing is basically a wasted ability.

    Haha that was hilarious tho. The threads from ghost moders hahaha

    I'm not that mad tho. Main reason I preordered 3 was for the extra ammunition for my future COP win :cool:
  • I'm getting angry and steaming up for no reason.

    You need calm down lady. Rule no. 5294 of Having Discussion states "You should never tell other people discussing to not say things that you don't wanna hear. Cause it beats the purpose of having a discussion in first place." Here's the lesson of life you should learn bubba.
  • Pooyan wrote: »
    You need calm down lady. Rule no. 5294 of Having Discussion states "You should never tell other people discussing to not say things that you don't wanna hear. Cause it beats the purpose of having a discussion in first place." Here's the lesson of life you should learn bubba.

    Lol.. You really do feel like you are someone special. Well since I couldn't care about who you are and what you want to tell me I am just going to avoid all your replies so yeah... if you wanna keep going you can but you will only be pleasing yourself... wait you've been doing that already hahaha.

    Anyway back onto the topic.
    Pyrex00 wrote: »
    Rip thread closed thanks guys

    now now let's not worry. One idiot isn't going to ruin this thread.
  • Lol.. You really do feel like you are someone special. Well since I couldn't care about who you are and what you want to tell me I am just going to avoid all your replies so yeah... if you wanna keep going you can but you will only be pleasing yourself... wait you've been doing that already hahaha.

    Anyway back onto the topic.



    now now let's not worry. One idiot isn't going to ruin this thread.

    I'm just surprised at how hostile some people become for no particular reason at all. I'm still confused as to why the name of saidin got you all worked up when it was a valid reference for the argument.

    Edit: Just to make something clear, I don't think I'm special. In fact what I do believe is there's only three categories of people on crossfire forums: GMs, MODs, and forumers. Anyone thinking they're special because they post frequently, or spend too much zp, or have won tournaments are just sad people who need to get out more.
This discussion has been closed.