Burning Bridges - Sponsored by thedoop*
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/burn+bridges
I like definition #2: Fig. to act unpleasantly in a situation that you are leaving, ensuring that you'll never be welcome to return.
As everyone is aware, recently there has been controversy regarding LifeLine and their participation in CF Global League (later renamed CF Stars) season 1 qualifier. The accusation is that LifeLine used a spectator (Iceman) to ghost for matches in the CFGL Qualifier.
Although I do not have any personal evidence for this outside my own opinion (I deleted my bandis to make room for a bunch of useless skyrim mods), it most likely happened.
It would seem that it was only malte and iceman doing the ghosting. Iceman however was not directly in our mumble channel so only those who were in contact with him, whether a separate mumble, cellphone call, or something else would of received the information.
In game, there was quite a few times where malte made a judgement call and called a rotate or some other form of adjustment for information that only he seemed to know. This however isn't unusual for how we functioned as a team. Although I was calling the strats, I was only a recent pickup and shared in game leadership with malte/blitzed.
This is just speculation, as I was not in the conversation between the ghosters, but if you put sketch's bandicam footage with in-game footage from the replays I posted it will no doubt leave some puzzling situations.
The youtube clip that sketch posted was after the first half of the sprayops match. The only two matches iceman spectated where the ones versus webgaming and sprayops.
With getting cut from instinct, and alpha five being set in their players I don't see any teams that I would play with, so there is no point at beating around the bush anymore. I most likely won't be participating in this qualifiers, ESG, or ESL. With indy lan having such a low prize pool, and a idiotic conduct policy I really don't see myself attending.
There was talk among ourselves about ghosting in another match, but nothing came of it.
To the parties involved:
ck- Not a lot to say. You may feel I cost the trip to china with poor fragging versus carbon, but your LMS situations certainly weren't very productive either. Even if we beat carbon, we can't be sure we would of won another bo3 versus hammertime. Simply we got pretty far for calling on the fly and relying on chemistry.
sketch- Didn't really know who you were when this happened and still not quite sure who you are. Sorry. Wish I had more evidence to back you up, as I feel you aren't lying.
blitz- Roth you're a great guy, and one of my past teammates I would consider a friend. Whether or not you had anything to do with ghosting in those 2 matches, I don't know and don't really care. It wouldn't change how I view my friendship with you. Hopefully you feel the same way, regardless of what went on between lifeline and myself (leaving to make lpk, posting about 0z/jbiel smurfing, leaving to make a US team in 2011).
malte- If I am entirely wrong about this whole thing, my apologies. Like with roth I really don't see why one or two things should define how i should view someone as a person. Outside this, you are still a great player and along with roth led us to victory versus instinct and jeden (two top teams a the time). I can say that some of the most dominating teams for their era I've been on had you on them, WOGL Launch in general was a blast.
iceman- I could never dislike someone who enjoys to have some drinks and shoot the ****. I hope all goes well up in canada with your new job, and if you are ever back in the st louis area we need to finally meet up and have some beers. 3rd try is the charm you know. If you didn't ghost with pete, I am sorry for airing false dirty laundry in the public. It just seemed that something was up and since having you ghost was brought up, I can't totally dismiss it. This has nothing to do with not believing your word or anything like that. Purely my opinion based on past experiences. Hopefully, this doesn't cause you to much trouble as I know you care about the CF community and have alot invested in ESG.
sprayops- If we cheated against you, I can't really say I am sorry. You were a garbage team and we easily would of won anyways.
web gaming- I feel like I know absolutely none of you. I heard you left FG lan to party, so I get the feeling we'd get along well. Sorry if we cheated versus you as you actually took a map off of us, and probably could of been competitive versus Instinct/Jeden.
Jeden- Sorry but you lost to us fair and square, afaik. Maybe you should of picked me up instead of minty, as we were both teamless at the time.
Instinct- Did you really expect to win with erick bottoming. I mean hes even harder to carry than I am. GL this summer.
I'll answer some questions for a while, but do remember this was one specific night over a year ago. Don't expect a history book.
I like definition #2: Fig. to act unpleasantly in a situation that you are leaving, ensuring that you'll never be welcome to return.
As everyone is aware, recently there has been controversy regarding LifeLine and their participation in CF Global League (later renamed CF Stars) season 1 qualifier. The accusation is that LifeLine used a spectator (Iceman) to ghost for matches in the CFGL Qualifier.
Although I do not have any personal evidence for this outside my own opinion (I deleted my bandis to make room for a bunch of useless skyrim mods), it most likely happened.
It would seem that it was only malte and iceman doing the ghosting. Iceman however was not directly in our mumble channel so only those who were in contact with him, whether a separate mumble, cellphone call, or something else would of received the information.
In game, there was quite a few times where malte made a judgement call and called a rotate or some other form of adjustment for information that only he seemed to know. This however isn't unusual for how we functioned as a team. Although I was calling the strats, I was only a recent pickup and shared in game leadership with malte/blitzed.
This is just speculation, as I was not in the conversation between the ghosters, but if you put sketch's bandicam footage with in-game footage from the replays I posted it will no doubt leave some puzzling situations.
The youtube clip that sketch posted was after the first half of the sprayops match. The only two matches iceman spectated where the ones versus webgaming and sprayops.
With getting cut from instinct, and alpha five being set in their players I don't see any teams that I would play with, so there is no point at beating around the bush anymore. I most likely won't be participating in this qualifiers, ESG, or ESL. With indy lan having such a low prize pool, and a idiotic conduct policy I really don't see myself attending.
There was talk among ourselves about ghosting in another match, but nothing came of it.
To the parties involved:
ck- Not a lot to say. You may feel I cost the trip to china with poor fragging versus carbon, but your LMS situations certainly weren't very productive either. Even if we beat carbon, we can't be sure we would of won another bo3 versus hammertime. Simply we got pretty far for calling on the fly and relying on chemistry.
sketch- Didn't really know who you were when this happened and still not quite sure who you are. Sorry. Wish I had more evidence to back you up, as I feel you aren't lying.
blitz- Roth you're a great guy, and one of my past teammates I would consider a friend. Whether or not you had anything to do with ghosting in those 2 matches, I don't know and don't really care. It wouldn't change how I view my friendship with you. Hopefully you feel the same way, regardless of what went on between lifeline and myself (leaving to make lpk, posting about 0z/jbiel smurfing, leaving to make a US team in 2011).
malte- If I am entirely wrong about this whole thing, my apologies. Like with roth I really don't see why one or two things should define how i should view someone as a person. Outside this, you are still a great player and along with roth led us to victory versus instinct and jeden (two top teams a the time). I can say that some of the most dominating teams for their era I've been on had you on them, WOGL Launch in general was a blast.
iceman- I could never dislike someone who enjoys to have some drinks and shoot the ****. I hope all goes well up in canada with your new job, and if you are ever back in the st louis area we need to finally meet up and have some beers. 3rd try is the charm you know. If you didn't ghost with pete, I am sorry for airing false dirty laundry in the public. It just seemed that something was up and since having you ghost was brought up, I can't totally dismiss it. This has nothing to do with not believing your word or anything like that. Purely my opinion based on past experiences. Hopefully, this doesn't cause you to much trouble as I know you care about the CF community and have alot invested in ESG.
sprayops- If we cheated against you, I can't really say I am sorry. You were a garbage team and we easily would of won anyways.
web gaming- I feel like I know absolutely none of you. I heard you left FG lan to party, so I get the feeling we'd get along well. Sorry if we cheated versus you as you actually took a map off of us, and probably could of been competitive versus Instinct/Jeden.
Jeden- Sorry but you lost to us fair and square, afaik. Maybe you should of picked me up instead of minty, as we were both teamless at the time.
Instinct- Did you really expect to win with erick bottoming. I mean hes even harder to carry than I am. GL this summer.
I'll answer some questions for a while, but do remember this was one specific night over a year ago. Don't expect a history book.
Comments
-
literally 5 seconds after I post this:
Conversation started between doop 5¹ and Ayrin: Sun, Jun 01 15:11:17 2014
[15:11] Ayrin: Hey buddy we are looking for a sub at the moment to fill a space for the ESG tournament
[15:11] Ayrin: you intrested?
[15:11] doop 5¹: nah
[15:11] doop 5¹: falling in love with a new game
[15:11] Ayrin: yeah I disocevred my left hand a couple days ago
[15:11] Ayrin: to
[15:11] Ayrin: too
[15:11] Ayrin:
[15:12] doop 5¹: i bat righty
Conversation ended: Sun, Jun 01 15:12:34 2014
is this what they call karma? -
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/burn+bridges
\
sprayops- If we cheated against you, I can't really say I am sorry. You were a garbage team and we easily would of won anyways.
\
funny how bw was actually close only fragging from your squad was blitz but if yall did ghost it def made a difference
but OT: hope to drink with you -
[MOD]Iceman wrote: »Doop. I got love for you. You know that. I can see why people think this but it's simply not true. With that being said, I wish you the best in everything you do.
Have you heard that bandi?
Yeah, it might not be a PROOF that they ghosted but it's pretty obvious that they wanted to. Pretty sure they wouldn't have even talked about ghosting unless they agreed on ghosting with you beforehand. ROFL. -
Have you heard that bandi?
Yeah, it might not be a PROOF that they ghosted but it's pretty obvious that they wanted to. Pretty sure they wouldn't have even talked about ghosting unless they agreed on ghosting with you beforehand. ROFL.
Sure I heard it. Like I said already I can see how you people think it happened. But it simply didn't happen. Believe what you want. Your told one thing, then show a snippet to add to it, sure it looks bad. I get it. Fact is it didn't happen. -
[MOD]Iceman wrote: »Sure I heard it. Like I said already I can see how you people think it happened. But it simply didn't happen. Believe what you want. Your told one thing, then show a snippet to add to it, sure it looks bad. I get it. Fact is it didn't happen.
lol .
Same evidence as the carbon situation, where the mods brought down the ban-hammer,
says "sure it looks bad, but come on guys, it didn't happen" -
Its not the same as carbon my God.
Tell me which situation this "evidence" describes.
1. A bandicam recording is made of players discussing ghosting. At no point is the word "ghosting" mentioned, or are any specific matches mentioned.
2. An involved party comes forward, saying that they ghosted. -
Ellustrial wrote: »Tell me which situation this "evidence" describes.
1. A bandicam recording is made of players discussing ghosting. At no point is the word "ghosting" mentioned, or are any specific matches mentioned.
2. An involved party comes forward, saying that they ghosted.
1. Refer to this post http://forum.z8games.com/showthread.php?t=281530
2. Go to the 3rd page
3. Proceed to do what the 5th post on that page says -
Ellustrial wrote: »Tell me which situation this "evidence" describes.
1. A bandicam recording is made of players discussing ghosting. At no point is the word "ghosting" mentioned, or are any specific matches mentioned.
2. An involved party comes forward, saying that they ghosted.
Where's option three? Oh that's right, you guys only think one way. Bash bash bash. Got it -
[MOD]Iceman wrote: »Where's option three? Oh that's right, you guys only think one way. Bash bash bash. Got it
Those weren't options. They were the essential points of evidence from each argument. And they happen to be exactly the same for each.1. Refer to this post http://forum.z8games.com/showthread.php?t=281530
2. Go to the 3rd page
3. Proceed to do what the 5th post on that page says
Hah, I'm not warmongering. I'm frustrated that people seem to be taking this situation far more laid back than the Carbon one.
Kanata already has been shown to be lying to some extent ("We would never" and then a day later a video comes out showing that they in fact did), so that by itself removes the option of them denying it being enough counterevidence. Two players on LifeLine at the time have now come forward saying "We probably did" and "We definitely did". The only people outright denying it have been proven to be lying.
My argument is that the current evidence is equivalent to the former evidence against carbon. Which, if you take the evidence as to what it means rather than the people involved, it...well, is.
Personally, IMO the current evidence is not enough. But, since it was enough to ban Carbon...well, that's where my issue arises. -
Ellustrial wrote: »Those weren't options. They were the essential points of evidence from each argument. And they happen to be exactly the same for each.
Hah, I'm not warmongering. I'm frustrated that people seem to be taking this situation far more laid back than the Carbon one.
Kanata already has been shown to be lying to some extent ("We would never" and then a day later a video comes out showing that they in fact did), so that by itself removes the option of them denying it being enough counterevidence. Two players on LifeLine at the time have now come forward saying "We probably did" and "We definitely did". The only people outright denying it have been proven to be lying.
My argument is that the current evidence is equivalent to the former evidence against carbon. Which, if you take the evidence as to what it means rather than the people involved, it...well, is.
Personally, IMO the current evidence is not enough. But, since it was enough to ban Carbon...well, that's where my issue arises.
You do realize the current evidence shows them considering it, but the action never takes place. Thats not being biased, thats looking at the facts of the video. Youve also got an ex-team mate saying it didnt happen.
Im not saying they arent super low for even considering it, but youre blowing it up past what the video shows.
Should there be action against those who even considered it? Sure I think thats fair, but thats up for Saidin and G4Box to decide. Nothing in that video suggests iceman was there to ghost. He was there during that match because I asked him to be there. Calm down. You going to accuse me now too? Since I asked him to be there? -
Ellustrial wrote: »I think it is at its essence, but I respect your opinion.
I think you see and hear what you "want" to justify your thinking. There's no video or audio of me talking to anyone about any ghosted matches. If anything was ever said it may have been sarcasm because of who I am, but we all know how it works here. Attack one another till something that isn't true turns out to be in your minds true. -
Also, the carbon evidence was OVERWHELMING. David got caught admitting to the bribe and the act of ghosting. We have video proof of that. Not to mention once David came out and said it, the other members admitted to it as well. Brando and Bert both admitted it directly to me. Bert even apologized on xfire for it.
All you have now is some ex-team mates saying yeah it happened, other current and ex-team mates saying it didn't happen and a video that shows they fully considered it, but during that time it did not actually happen. Very unprofessional? Definitely. That's super low.
Not the same as Carbon. Should something be done? I think so. To what extent? Thats up to G4Box. That was CFS Season 1. Im not sure how one would proceed. -
[MOD]Polleus wrote: »You do realize the current evidence shows them considering it, but the action never takes place. Thats not being biased, thats looking at the facts of the video. Youve also got an ex-team mate saying it didnt happen.
Im not saying they arent super low for even considering it, but youre blowing it up past what the video shows.
Should there be action against those who even considered it? Sure I think thats fair, but thats up for Saidin and G4Box to decide. Nothing in that video suggests iceman was there to ghost. He was there during that match because I asked him to be there. Calm down. You going to accuse me now too? Since I asked him to be there?
First off, thank you. I appreciate you arguing with the evidence rather than with emotions.
Unfortunately, that's a slippery slope argument, but I respect you so I'll address your points.
Yes, I realize that the current video evidence shows that they considered it. However, if you look over the DavidLive video, they never actually mention doing it at all. The closest thing in the entire 4 minute clip Mateusz uploaded was when David says the word "again" when they say "on the phone with Andrej".
However, right after that, someone else says it was just a joke. The only other direct mention is when Andrej says "yeah but secretly you were serious hahaha". Immediately after, they all shut up because ERICK comes into the room.
I'll reiterate. The closest thing in the entire 4 minute clip Mateusz uploaded was when David says the word "again" when they say "on the phone with Andrej". They never once say "during matches". They never once say "while playing CrossFire". The entire thing Andrej plays it off as a joke, laughing the entire time and saying "You would think I would do something like that, scumbag".
In other words, there is reason to believe (in the Carbon recording) that it was not serious thing that they actually ever did. There is no reason to believe that in the LifeLine video; it was very serious, and very direct.
____________________
Moving on to the "additional evidence",
Let's look at the 5 players on their team.
Malte: "We would never even talk about ghosting."
Roth: "We would never even talk about ghosting."
CK: "We definitely talked about ghosting, but we never did."
Doop: "I'm pretty sure we ghosted, but I don't remember."
Sketcheyes: "We ghosted."
Malte and Roth are immediately shown to be lying, as per this video. Which means that our only other person-to-person testimony relies on CK, Doop, and Sketcheyes. Doop says "We probably did, we wanted to." Sketcheyes says "We definitely did." CK says "I thought Malte was joking."
Our third and final evidence is that there are clear moments where Malte seems to be ghosting in game. This is circumstantial, and is just like any bust video of a "walling" player: in other words, inconclusive.
____________________
So, discounting the players who are shown to be unreliable through video evidence (Roth and Malte), you have this evidence:
1. A video recording of members of their team discussing ghosting.
2. A team member coming forward saying they ghosted.
3. A team member coming forward saying "we probably did, we had all agreed to it".
4. A team member saying he thought Malte meant it as a joke.
5. The caster denying that he ghosted.
Do you think that is not enough evidence?[MOD]Polleus wrote: »Also, the carbon evidence was OVERWHELMING. David got caught admitting to the bribe and the act of ghosting. We have video proof of that. Not to mention once David came out and said it, the other members admitted to it as well. Brando and Bert both admitted it directly to me. Bert even apologized on xfire for it.
You posted this as I was typing me rebuttal. I will reiterate once more. At no point in the entire video did they admit to ghosting, or mention CrossFire, or say in matches, and in absolutely no way discussed a bribe. The bribe came forward after David Live revealed that information in his thread.
I do agree, however, with your point that "the other members came forward". Yet, action was being decided upon before they had. The community was in an uproar before they did. I loathe the difference between the two teams.
Also, do you think that - had the members of Carbon denied it - there would have been enough evidence to ban them?
, more videos pls! ![[MOD]Polleus](https://forum.z8games.com/uploads/customavatars/7/navatar_8918107.gif){kind=avatar}
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