Let's talk about balance for GM
Hello every one, got 10 minutes to spare?
So, we all know why ghost mode is getting close to unplayable in pubs. (hacks, getting kicked, brainless opponents etc) but pubs are just for weapon testing anyway. The real fun is in Clan wars. (if you are lucky enough to find a group of people near your skill level)
You can say 'there's barly any gm clans cwing.' and that is pretty true. but if you really wanted to, you can find a match easy by whispering/xfiring people. But this thread isn't about how to find people to play with, it's about the balance between GR and BL for set up matches.
what is fair? what isn't fair? why? This is about future tournaments rules, the pick up games we have, and also clan wars. so please, get your mind out of pub mode and think hard before you respond. but i would like every one to respond.
My team and i clan war decent gm clans almost everyday. we win, we lose, we learn. The main thing we learned is what should be classified as fair game, and what is just cheap/skill-less/OP/etc. i've also learned a bit from playing in tourny a few months ago. The thing i learned is although GR may win more often than BL does, (when BL has lowbreath and axe) The rule set i have created is perfectly balanced.
although please note, most people are better on 1 side of ghost mode than the other side.
what should NOT be allowed:
-Shovel is cheap/overpowered for obvious reasons. 1 shot kill to legs, long range, lightweight, fast right click spam. there's nothing bad about it.
-armour eats nades and let's you stay alive for 2/3 bullets longer. And ofc, knife sucks against it. armour is expensive and not available to most people.
-spops/star are cheap because they take longer/harder to see/aim at, but also because they are already around the corner (on their screen) before you can see any part of their thin body.
-shock obsorber just makes people play carelessly with no consequences for their actions. it is just another ZP item that makes people use less skill.
machine guns/tommy - well, 5 people spraying 500 bullets into a bomb site is just cheap. anybody could do that successfully, although i've never seen good clans do this.
none of these should be debatable :S but any one is free to give their opinion.
What is fair game:
axe - heavier, slower b hop, not 1 shot kill to legs, good wind up time. i'm willing to bet some people are better with knive than they are axe. (excluding armour)
low breath - it's available to every one, and why not buy it? it makes the game balanced.. remember the old days where GR would flat out dominate? with low breath there's a fair chance to get close to the enemy before getting shot at. sometimes awesome B hoppers can kill you before you hear them. well, it's your fault for being in an area that lets B hoppers B hop that fast.
Silenced weapons - They are similar to regular GP weapons, just silenced with 5 more bullets. no big deal. Allows teamates to be able to hear low breath.
Step noise down - i think it's legit. but i also think it's the only thing i have posted that could be debatable. it promotes more rushing/careless play. but i don't think it's overpowered.. i'll leave this one up to some one else.
fast plant/defuse - well you'll probably die as a ghost sitting there planting for 5 seconds. also taking a long time for GR to defuse, makes it easy for ghosts. it's available to every one and promotes more killing, less bomb waiting.
Also, for people who can't/don't buy ZP, There's another rule set is balanced. it's the same thing except no axes or ZP silenced weapons.
tournys/pugs/clan wars, i am positive these rules are perfect. like i said, i do a lot of CW and GR wins most of the time. but that's mainly because most people are better as GR because it's easier to play. Some maps are GR/BL sided too. (mainly complex GR, lost relics BL)
leave opinions below please (:
don't hate on ghost mode either, it's a Great mode ruined by a bad community (mainly BRs)
no more pub until xtrap steps it up. just make friends with the other gm clans and organize a match. Win or lose, it doesn't matter, as long as it's fun!
tl'dr: BL - axe, lowbreath vs GR silenced m4's = more skilled/team oriented clan should win.
So, we all know why ghost mode is getting close to unplayable in pubs. (hacks, getting kicked, brainless opponents etc) but pubs are just for weapon testing anyway. The real fun is in Clan wars. (if you are lucky enough to find a group of people near your skill level)
You can say 'there's barly any gm clans cwing.' and that is pretty true. but if you really wanted to, you can find a match easy by whispering/xfiring people. But this thread isn't about how to find people to play with, it's about the balance between GR and BL for set up matches.
what is fair? what isn't fair? why? This is about future tournaments rules, the pick up games we have, and also clan wars. so please, get your mind out of pub mode and think hard before you respond. but i would like every one to respond.
My team and i clan war decent gm clans almost everyday. we win, we lose, we learn. The main thing we learned is what should be classified as fair game, and what is just cheap/skill-less/OP/etc. i've also learned a bit from playing in tourny a few months ago. The thing i learned is although GR may win more often than BL does, (when BL has lowbreath and axe) The rule set i have created is perfectly balanced.
although please note, most people are better on 1 side of ghost mode than the other side.
what should NOT be allowed:
-Shovel is cheap/overpowered for obvious reasons. 1 shot kill to legs, long range, lightweight, fast right click spam. there's nothing bad about it.
-armour eats nades and let's you stay alive for 2/3 bullets longer. And ofc, knife sucks against it. armour is expensive and not available to most people.
-spops/star are cheap because they take longer/harder to see/aim at, but also because they are already around the corner (on their screen) before you can see any part of their thin body.
-shock obsorber just makes people play carelessly with no consequences for their actions. it is just another ZP item that makes people use less skill.
machine guns/tommy - well, 5 people spraying 500 bullets into a bomb site is just cheap. anybody could do that successfully, although i've never seen good clans do this.
none of these should be debatable :S but any one is free to give their opinion.
What is fair game:
axe - heavier, slower b hop, not 1 shot kill to legs, good wind up time. i'm willing to bet some people are better with knive than they are axe. (excluding armour)
low breath - it's available to every one, and why not buy it? it makes the game balanced.. remember the old days where GR would flat out dominate? with low breath there's a fair chance to get close to the enemy before getting shot at. sometimes awesome B hoppers can kill you before you hear them. well, it's your fault for being in an area that lets B hoppers B hop that fast.
Silenced weapons - They are similar to regular GP weapons, just silenced with 5 more bullets. no big deal. Allows teamates to be able to hear low breath.
Step noise down - i think it's legit. but i also think it's the only thing i have posted that could be debatable. it promotes more rushing/careless play. but i don't think it's overpowered.. i'll leave this one up to some one else.
fast plant/defuse - well you'll probably die as a ghost sitting there planting for 5 seconds. also taking a long time for GR to defuse, makes it easy for ghosts. it's available to every one and promotes more killing, less bomb waiting.
Also, for people who can't/don't buy ZP, There's another rule set is balanced. it's the same thing except no axes or ZP silenced weapons.
tournys/pugs/clan wars, i am positive these rules are perfect. like i said, i do a lot of CW and GR wins most of the time. but that's mainly because most people are better as GR because it's easier to play. Some maps are GR/BL sided too. (mainly complex GR, lost relics BL)
leave opinions below please (:
don't hate on ghost mode either, it's a Great mode ruined by a bad community (mainly BRs)
no more pub until xtrap steps it up. just make friends with the other gm clans and organize a match. Win or lose, it doesn't matter, as long as it's fun!
tl'dr: BL - axe, lowbreath vs GR silenced m4's = more skilled/team oriented clan should win.
Comments
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If you knew how to bhop consistently, you wouldn't need breath down. B'down was one of the things that killed the GM scene along with Shovels, Machine guns, etc..
in the old gm days, GR always won by a large score. look at the old panther vs dark boss photos just as an example. 9-0 9-1. i don't know if people liked GR winning all the time but i'd prefer if both sides are balanced.
there's nothing wrong with breath down. you just have to play smarter insteady of carelessly walking into open areas. b hopping without breath down is still easy to pinpoint for GR. if you played pug matches, some allow axe but don't allow breath down. and GR always runs up the score. it's just stupid. -
The one thing is that people have to realize the balances of both teams and the advantages they have.
GR's Advantages/Items of Use:
Guns - These can Range from Good to Bad and have limited ammo.
Body Armour (ZP) - AFAIK This would only really protect against the knife. MAYBE an axe slash. But doubtful it could help tank a shovel swing or an axe swing.
Protective Helmet (ZP) - Same as the armour but for headshots.
Extended Ammo - Most don't use this for GM, but sprayers may intend to, so its listed here. More ammo is always a plus.
Shock Absorber (ZP) - Not as useful as it would for BL, but the little falling damage could be a life saver from a simple knife strike sometimes.
**Headphones** - This one is the thing that is a great debate... How can something be fair when you gotta pay just to play properly? But this is still a valueable tool in locating ghosts 90% of the time.
Now, not gonna put things like Flash Guard and Smoke Helmet, because really... Thats usually things involved from teammates being crap and making your job more difficult, not an advantage.
BL Advantages/Items of Use:
Axe & Shovel (ZP) - More power than a knife, generally more chances to succeed in a 1 shot kill.
Body Armour (ZP) - Excellent GR nade defense, as well as allowing one to survive 2 or more shots against a gun more than usual. Handy for that extra little bit.
Protective Helmet (ZP) - Same as the body armour but for shots to the head. very useful in not getting smoked instantly by a random sprayed bullet.
Shock Absorber (ZP) - This basically negates the need to do any ninja jumping to negate falling damage. Which is usually a crucial part of GR tactics of locating Ghosts, hearing them being hurt. Allowing Ghosts to drop down from insane heights and take no damage or very little. Reducing skill involved for such pro ninjaing as well.
Step Noise Down - In my opinion, not something many pro ghosts would need. May be handy at times but generally a waste of GP when one can bhop around a place silently and faster than running. But still listed as it does provide a benefit to those who don't always bhop.
Breath Down - One of the BL's key tools. The range at being able to hear Ghost's is lessened and quieter. Making those who can listen (the ones who actually had to BUY headphones generally) job is that much harder.
Bunny Hop - The greatest tool in a BL's arsenal. Allows you to move faster than running. Allows you to remain perfectly invisible while moving. And allows you to remain breathless while moving until you 'land' (as in, stop bhopping). Although it takes some skill to use, it generally becomes a force to reckon with when learned. Pinpointers can't succeed against constant bhoppers as they are breathless. No items counter this ability of perfect stealth and speed.
From what I can see, the favour of GM goes to the BL. Even a skilled listening GR will generally fail against a good Bhopping BL. Not to mention that the BL don't need the extra gear (headphones) like GR do to take advantage of one of the few aspects they have. Which isn't all that helpful against the breathless. Add the items above for the BL to include their bhop makes them even more powerful. -
/agree with just about everything.
just two things:
-spop/star: no real advantage here. i would think this is debatable; i understand how in can give that small mental boost, but i really don't think spop provides that much of a difference if you're playing competant teams.
if you're going to play with axes and silenced weapons, spop/star is a go; no zp matches = no spop/star.
-foot down: i'd rather not have to deal with this one, it's fair and unfair in the sense that if you're BL you should be bhopping if you're within the run sound range, so it's your fault if you run without foot down, therefore i don't think we should have foot down.
(i read over that again, and it sounded extremely awkward >:/ )
feel free to disagree.
i feel like i want to switch to snd because of hacks and whatnot, but i suk monster chode at snd >:/ -
if you're going to play with axes and silenced weapons, spop/star is a go; no zp matches = no spop/star.
very understandable. the shooting at spops isn't the main problem. it's not being able to see them until half a second after they see you. like a gr spop goes around a corner, you can see a normal character before you would see a spop because GP characters are fatter. so it's an advantage. you have less time to react before spop starts shooting.MonkeyMunzta wrote: »We play GM cw's everyday.
In UK clan server,there is no one who can beat us[cept. hakers,but we beat them too,lol]
Agree on that what you posted tho.
trinity has a nice GM team in uk server, i'd play them if i was stab. they are probably your best competition. -
low breath - it's available to every one, and why not buy it? it makes the game balanced.. remember the old days where GR would flat out dominate? with low breath there's a fair chance to get close to the enemy before getting shot at. sometimes awesome B hoppers can kill you before you hear them. well, it's your fault for being in an area that lets B hoppers B hop that fast.
it costs 211-357GP per day, add another 211-357 for footstep down, leaving me with very little daily income (up to 714 daily cost, completely eating your daily mission), also I just occasionally play GM and almost never on BL site, both making this item(s) a waste of money for me. Unless you don't mind the high cost or really want to use it, I wouldn't recommand buying it.
And btw, MOST areas allow bhoppers more or less easy access to your camping spot. Also running-to-bomb-site, defusing bomb, running to "an area that doesn't let B hoppers B hop that fast" situations. Easy target(s) for bhoppers+shovel.
Won't complain too much about the rest of your post though. Agree with some/most of your points. -
-spop/star: no real advantage here. i would think this is debatable; i understand how in can give that small mental boost, but i really don't think spop provides that much of a difference if you're playing competant teams.
if you're going to play with axes and silenced weapons, spop/star is a go; no zp matches = no spop/star.
This. Real competitive/skilled GM players should be able to bunny hop efficiently, or even moderately. If they cannot do this and need to peak corners, then you should have no problem dealing with these players. Plus, if they're in a range where they can rush you before you can react, you should have no problem hearing them either. No advantage in SPOP/STAR; ghosts are sometimes already hard to see sometimes, like in a very bright area, so the skinny body isn't a big deal at all compared to other advantages you can buy.
Examples: Footstep down-foot down: i'd rather not have to deal with this one, it's fair and unfair in the sense that if you're BL you should be bhopping if you're within the run sound range, so it's your fault if you run without foot down, therefore i don't think we should have foot down.
Breath down is also a little bit OP in my opinion depending on who uses it. Extremely skilled bunny hoppers without breath down are already impossible to pinpoint mainly because breath lags and they're "teleporting" everywhere, sometimes you get killed without hearing any breath.
Also, balance between GR and BL cannot be met because of bunny hopping for reasons stated above; which kind of makes bunny hopping kind OP if the right people use it. Skilled BLs vs skilled GRs, BL will always win. -
this thread is true but, i thought most of this was obvious?
i dont like step down but i find it more useful in cws because id rather run around then bhop in places i dont see any enemies still i rarely use it.
as for damage down most gm'rs know if u bhop when u fall u take no dmg
i feel its only helpful in the way that theres a chance u will fail -
I agree with just about everything. The SPOP thing is kinda silly though, everyone knows that they have they same hitboxes as normal characters, they just appear smaller, so its not really unfair. I don't get thrown off by spop in GM, or in any other mode. Also iffy on the shovel, I guess the shovel lag is pretty stupid but I'm considerably better with an axe than a shovel. Left clicking with the shovel is useless, left clicking with the axe is easy especially if you can aim for the head. I love p*ssing kids off that way. Other than those though, well done ;3
______________________________
-Haley.♀ -
this thread is true but, i thought most of this was obvious?
one would think that. but i sure do see a lot of shovels in clan wars. if everybody went by these rules, clan warring would be epicly fun and intense for all. it is up for everybody reading forums to get their clans to start dropping the trashy items.I agree with just about everything. The SPOP thing is kinda silly though, everyone knows that they have they same hitboxes as normal characters, they just appear smaller, so its not really unfair. I don't get thrown off by spop in GM, or in any other mode. Also iffy on the shovel, I guess the shovel lag is pretty stupid but I'm considerably better with an axe than a shovel. Left clicking with the shovel is useless, left clicking with the axe is easy especially if you can aim for the head. I love p*ssing kids off that way. Other than those though, well done ;3
maybe they hitboxes are the same, i don't know, i've never tested it. but it's not just about trying to hit them. what good is having the same hitboxes if you can't see the target? (details on post #12) i mean it's obvious why it's banned from leagues and there's a thousand dudes using them.
as for shovel, there's definitly no iffy about it. it's the cheapest thing in the game besides m12. Even if it had a non laggy animation, it's still way too OP. -
as for shovel, there's definitly no iffy about it. it's the cheapest thing in the game besides m12. Even if it had a non laggy animation, it's still way too OP.
I don't see how. Shovel and Axe both have its up and downs. The only thing that makes Shovel OP is the laggy animation; once they fix that, it should be fine. Shovel is a one right-hit kill to the legs, so? It makes up for the fact that it cannot one left-hit kill. Same for the axe, the fact that you swing the axe in a vertical animation makes it so easy to headshot, and it's a one left-hit kill and that makes up for the weak right-hit leg shot. In the other thread, I said that I lol'd at some of your views because of the way you judge things, this is one of those examples; I mean how can you judge the Shovel OP and not the Axe? (If the lag animation was removed). Though I do agree with you on some things as well. -
I don't see how. Shovel and Axe both have its up and downs. The only thing that makes Shovel OP is the laggy animation; once they fix that, it should be fine. Shovel is a one right-hit kill to the legs, so? It makes up for the fact that it cannot one left-hit kill. Same for the axe, the fact that you swing the axe in a vertical animation makes it so easy to headshot, and it's a one left-hit kill and that makes up for the weak right-hit leg shot. In the other thread, I said that I lol'd at some of your views because of the way you judge things, this is one of those examples; I mean how can you judge the Shovel OP and not the Axe? (If the lag animation was removed). Though I do agree with you on some things as well.
I'm presuming you use shovel 24/7? There is no doubting the weapon is OP, you can just bunnyhop spamming rightclick and take out the entire GR, without being heard by even some of the best Pinpointers because it is so light. Axe is heavy, and actually requires SOME aiming to be successful. Knife is lightweight, but is only 1 hit kill to the face and stomache. -
spop = much easier to see fail bhopsI agree with just about everything. The SPOP thing is kinda silly though, everyone knows that they have they same hitboxes as normal characters, they just appear smaller, so its not really unfair.
______________________________
-Haley.♀ -
I'm presuming you use shovel 24/7? There is no doubting the weapon is OP, you can just bunnyhop spamming rightclick and take out the entire GR, without being heard by even some of the best Pinpointers because it is so light. Axe is heavy, and actually requires SOME aiming to be successful. Knife is lightweight, but is only 1 hit kill to the face and stomache.
I'm presuming you rage every time you get killed by a shovel? I don't really need to tell you this, but I use both axe and shovel and it depends which I use in a situation. You can spam right click with axe and still take out the entire GR. Axe requires aim to hit someone in the face with a left click, but not much. I personally think its silly for people to exclude shovel and not the axe when they're both virtually the same thing. Of course at where we are now, it's not silly only because of the animation. Otherwise it would be. -
I don't see how. Shovel and Axe both have its up and downs. The only thing that makes Shovel OP is the laggy animation; once they fix that, it should be fine. Shovel is a one right-hit kill to the legs, so? It makes up for the fact that it cannot one left-hit kill. Same for the axe, the fact that you swing the axe in a vertical animation makes it so easy to headshot, and it's a one left-hit kill and that makes up for the weak right-hit leg shot. In the other thread, I said that I lol'd at some of your views because of the way you judge things, this is one of those examples; I mean how can you judge the Shovel OP and not the Axe? (If the lag animation was removed). Though I do agree with you on some things as well.
your gay as ***
spesh wit your green writin
shovel swings horizontal
so even if you dodge it wont miss if your close enough
an 100dmg to feet is bs
aswell as insane range
laggy anim
light as ***
laggy sound
shovel users = gardeners & male gardeners = gay & bad
hohohoho -
your gay as ***
spesh wit your green writin
shovel swings horizontal
so even if you dodge it wont miss if your close enough
an 100dmg to feet is bs
aswell as insane range
laggy anim
light as ***
laggy sound
shovel users = gardeners & male gardeners = gay & bad
hohohoho
So what does that make you, which I'll presume you're an axe user, a firefighter? -
I'm presuming you rage every time you get killed by a shovel? I don't really need to tell you this, but I use both axe and shovel and it depends which I use in a situation. You can spam right click with axe and still take out the entire GR. Axe requires aim to hit someone in the face with a left click, but not much. I personally think its silly for people to exclude shovel and not the axe when they're both virtually the same thing. Of course at where we are now, it's not silly only because of the animation. Otherwise it would be.
I don't rage. I laugh at the other person for having SPOP + Armour + BDown, and still go negative in a pub. Or I ask why on earth they're using shovel + SPOP + Armour + BDown in a CW. Then proceed to roll them.
EDIT: I can definitely see why you have LT in your name, and why your clanmates call Panthers and DarkBoss hack clans. -
I don't rage. I laugh at the other person for having SPOP + Armour + BDown, and still go negative in a pub. Or I ask why on earth they're using shovel + SPOP + Armour + BDown in a CW. Then proceed to roll them.
EDIT: I can definitely see why you have LT in your name, and why your clanmates call Panthers and DarkBoss hack clans.
LOLD
yea ano rite
kids goin 0.5 or less in pub wit all tha nub gears are jokeee
spesh when your team is insanely ret.arded aswell lmaoo
![MissA]Suzy](https://z8games.akamaized.net/cfna/forum/customavatars/24/navatar_4061724.gif){kind=avatar}
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