Rule Change needed for Competitive Tournaments
So I was just informed of an issue that has popped up several times during a tournament. In cases where a player is suspected of cheating, the tournament admins may look into the matter by manually checking the suspected player PC files for anything that may cause alarm. During these inspections the admins come across clean yet odd PC's, especially for an active gamer. Over the years I have seen it done personally and have been told by others of these occurrences where system information is missing when there should be something there.
So I have a few questions,
Q1) Why would a player want to restore their PC right after a match?
Q2) Why would a PC have a clean cache, browser history, download history?
Q3) Why would a player need to run a program such as CC Cleaner or AV after a match?
Now the questions I have asked does not mean a player cannot ever attempt to do. By all means you can go ahead and restore, CC Clean, delete your history right now if you wish. My biggest question is why would your system be clean as a whistle right after a match?
My suggestion,
All players that have just finished playing in a match for a tournament must not alter their PC in anyway until an admin gives you the OK.
Altercation would be define as - Removal of pass history of cache, download history, browser history. Player cannot use any programs that may delete or alter their system files such as an anti-virus or CC Cleaner.
This rule can be changed to where a certain amount of time (such as 1 hour) has passed until a player can alter their pc.
This rule change should help keep out any suspicion that a player is hiding anything. There are ways to see when things were deleted or altered, so good luck in trying to hide it.
So I have a few questions,
Q1) Why would a player want to restore their PC right after a match?
Q2) Why would a PC have a clean cache, browser history, download history?
Q3) Why would a player need to run a program such as CC Cleaner or AV after a match?
Now the questions I have asked does not mean a player cannot ever attempt to do. By all means you can go ahead and restore, CC Clean, delete your history right now if you wish. My biggest question is why would your system be clean as a whistle right after a match?
My suggestion,
All players that have just finished playing in a match for a tournament must not alter their PC in anyway until an admin gives you the OK.
Altercation would be define as - Removal of pass history of cache, download history, browser history. Player cannot use any programs that may delete or alter their system files such as an anti-virus or CC Cleaner.
This rule can be changed to where a certain amount of time (such as 1 hour) has passed until a player can alter their pc.
This rule change should help keep out any suspicion that a player is hiding anything. There are ways to see when things were deleted or altered, so good luck in trying to hide it.
Comments
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Seems like a good rule. It was definitely odd in today's situation the person didn't have trace of recent logs for computer activity if it was internet browser related that would of been a bit more understandable for privacy reasons although you should get rid of anything personal in any logs beforehand. We know it was cleaned after because there should of been traces to when he opened his Bandicam folder and Moss file to upload.
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Great rule. If you have nothing to hide then you shouldn't be messin with the files anyway. Ye i know people wanna keep their pc clean, do it before or after the tournament is over. not right before someone asks to teamview you in suspicion of cheats.
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Should also make it mandatory to show the taskbar in its full length and not hide icons before starting the game. if so, you should be expected to get teamviewed.
Hacks have to be run before the game and will always have an icon, if that rule is implemented, I think there'd be a significant decrease in hackers that play on anti cheat. -
IMO banning people from cleaning their pc shows your AC doesn't work. You having to check someones PC for cheats shows your anti cheat can't do something you can do easily manually. If you are relying on someones pc being checked after the game has already happened, the AC system during the match clearly isn't cutting it and should be revised. Any good Anti-hacking system can and should be able to detect what is needed during the time the match is taking place. Anyone who knows how to hide cheats can, and if they aren't being caught during a match, they probably won't be caught after.
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IMO banning people from cleaning their pc shows your AC doesn't work. You having to check someones PC for cheats shows your anti cheat can't do something you can do easily manually. If you are relying on someones pc being checked after the game has already happened, the AC system during the match clearly isn't cutting it and should be revised. Any good Anti-hacking system can and should be able to detect what is needed during the time the match is taking place. Anyone who knows how to hide cheats can, and if they aren't being caught during a match, they probably won't be caught after.
I think you are absolutley 100% correct on this matter BUT due to the fact that people have bypassed this anti cheat before and got away with it AND considering we don't have another anti cheat software, i think this would be a great rule to implement. -
IMO banning people from cleaning their pc shows your AC doesn't work. You having to check someones PC for cheats shows your anti cheat can't do something you can do easily manually. If you are relying on someones pc being checked after the game has already happened, the AC system during the match clearly isn't cutting it and should be revised. Any good Anti-hacking system can and should be able to detect what is needed during the time the match is taking place. Anyone who knows how to hide cheats can, and if they aren't being caught during a match, they probably won't be caught after.
Lol banning people from cleaning their pc -
My point was this shouldn't be a rule. There are systems you can put in place or tweaks to be made that wouldn't need this rule to be in place. The problem is with a rule like this in place you do 2 things that as a league you should not ever do.
1 - Admit your system in general has many issues that make it unreliable and easily by-passable (Basically generating mistrust of your AC, as OCG similarly did in 2012 by manually checking PC, solidifying that their AC couldn't do much for CF)
2 - You break the privacy wall, that shouldn't have to be broken. No quality league ever should ask for remote access to your pc, nor should a league ask for it out of respect for player privacy. Once again making the league look less professional, and less reliable.
If the problem is people are cheating. Work on improving the systems in place in ways that maintain professionalism within the esport. Just my two cents if you don't want to be considered in the same light OCG was. -
My point was this shouldn't be a rule. There are systems you can put in place or tweaks to be made that wouldn't need this rule to be in place. The problem is with a rule like this in place you do 2 things that as a league you should not ever do.
1 - Admit your system in general has many issues that make it unreliable and easily by-passable (Basically generating mistrust of your AC, as OCG similarly did in 2012 by manually checking PC, solidifying that their AC couldn't do much for CF)
2 - You break the privacy wall, that shouldn't have to be broken. No quality league ever should ask for remote access to your pc, nor should a league ask for it out of respect for player privacy. Once again making the league look less professional, and less reliable.
If the problem is people are cheating. Work on improving the systems in place in ways that maintain professionalism within the esport. Just my two cents if you don't want to be considered in the same light OCG was.
Well said. -
My point was this shouldn't be a rule. There are systems you can put in place or tweaks to be made that wouldn't need this rule to be in place. The problem is with a rule like this in place you do 2 things that as a league you should not ever do.
1 - Admit your system in general has many issues that make it unreliable and easily by-passable (Basically generating mistrust of your AC, as OCG similarly did in 2012 by manually checking PC, solidifying that their AC couldn't do much for CF)
2 - You break the privacy wall, that shouldn't have to be broken. No quality league ever should ask for remote access to your pc, nor should a league ask for it out of respect for player privacy. Once again making the league look less professional, and less reliable.
If the problem is people are cheating. Work on improving the systems in place in ways that maintain professionalism with in the esport. Just my two cents if you don't want to be considered in the same light OCG was.
Im not saying your wrong, but i think it would be better to have this rule in place UNTIL we get an AC that is not bypassable. The community knows people have bypassed and won before so its already ruined our professionalism. I'm really in favor of this rule mainly because i dont think its fair for people who want to play for fun and are legit to put up with people who may bypass. -
Its just a rule in poor taste. As I mentioned those who are cheating can and will still find ways to hide things even if someone has remote access to their pc. All in all, I would rather see a halt of events and work on improving the AC System, rather than a league thrown out there just to have one, with an extreme lack of professionalism. If we really want the esports world to take competitive CF seriously ever, we should focus on actually holding the events we put on to a certain standard of quality.
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ExplizitAlt wrote: »Anon I don't think you'll get better with this rule being implemented anyway xD
Just saying
How's this have anything to do with me getting better?
@Zzxq with a community this dumb its hard to believe there could be any professionalism. This quote proves my point. -
Its just a rule in poor taste. As I mentioned those who are cheating can and will still find ways to hide things even if someone has remote access to their pc. All in all, I would rather see a halt of events and work on improving the AC System, rather than a league thrown out there just to have one, with an extreme lack of professionalism. If we really want the esports world to take competitive CF seriously ever, we should focus on actually holding the events we put on to a certain standard of quality.
You can look at logs and see when files where deleted from a PC.
I dont like the rule either but if you dont have a working AC then there is pretty much no other choice. The issue with OCG was their AC could look at saved passwords and billing information that was stored in cache.
If you have an Anti-cheat that will work on CF, then by all means please forward it to the admins of these tournaments. But as we all know, no AC is 100% fool proof. -
This was for the time being as the Anti-cheat was having issues that day. The EGL admin was already open for new anti-cheat ideas and was forwarded Game-blocks which supposedly contacted Z8games about replacing x-trap. I hope to get a notice on what is currently happening with that and the 2016 competitive esports since Odeeb left.
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You can look at logs and see when files where deleted from a PC.
I dont like the rule either but if you dont have a working AC then there is pretty much no other choice. The issue with OCG was their AC could look at saved passwords and billing information that was stored in cache.
If you have an Anti-cheat that will work on CF, then by all means please forward it to the admins of these tournaments. But as we all know, no AC is 100% fool proof.
That can all be bypassed and gotten around fairly easily though...If someone is willing to risk running cheats, they'll probably have enough knowledge of how to bypass simple things like that. Just saying that relying on "but they can check x,y or z" tactics can never work.
Like Zzxq said - you need something that reports back during the match, if you don't rely on that, it shows you have 0 trust in your AC, so why would anyone else? Outside of the match people can do anything they want, no-one should have to prove they don't cheat, it is the League/Organisations duty to prove they did, through Anti-Cheat logs. Yes, there are MAJOR privacy issues in place with that. And you cannot bring a rule like that in mid-tournament and expect players to do it because you decided. Something that big has to be said from the start, so people know what they're signing up for before it starts...but it's still a scary move by ANY company to demand access to your PC - without a legal warrant, you cannot demand that. -
[MOD]NattNatt wrote: »That can all be bypassed and gotten around fairly easily though...If someone is willing to risk running cheats, they'll probably have enough knowledge of how to bypass simple things like that. Just saying that relying on "but they can check x,y or z" tactics can never work.
Like Zzxq said - you need something that reports back during the match, if you don't rely on that, it shows you have 0 trust in your AC, so why would anyone else? Outside of the match people can do anything they want, no-one should have to prove they don't cheat, it is the League/Organisations duty to prove they did, through Anti-Cheat logs. Yes, there are MAJOR privacy issues in place with that. And you cannot bring a rule like that in mid-tournament and expect players to do it because you decided. Something that big has to be said from the start, so people know what they're signing up for before it starts...but it's still a scary move by ANY company to demand access to your PC - without a legal warrant, you cannot demand that.
Good points I enjoy seeing both sides of the argument but all this being said it was only a temp fix because ACP wasn't functioning. However we concluded if ACP or w/e anticheat we use at that time, if it is not functional we most likely won't hold the tournament that day or week -
You can look at logs and see when files where deleted from a PC.
I dont like the rule either but if you dont have a working AC then there is pretty much no other choice. The issue with OCG was their AC could look at saved passwords and billing information that was stored in cache.
If you have an Anti-cheat that will work on CF, then by all means please forward it to the admins of these tournaments. But as we all know, no AC is 100% fool proof.
I agree with this point as well too. If you have an AC with no issues that would be great and would love it if you forwarded to us. We have contacted multiple other AC companies but they all are focused on replacing Xtrap -
Michaelxv205 wrote: »Good points I enjoy seeing both sides of the argument but all this being said it was only a temp fix because ACP wasn't functioning. However we concluded if ACP or w/e anticheat we use at that time, if it is not functional we most likely won't hold the tournament that day or week
Can I ask what the "other side" of this argument would be? You obviously don't know about actual IT/Security if you're considering that sort of thing to be a solution to this issue..? -
[MOD]NattNatt wrote: »Can I ask what the "other side" of this argument would be? You obviously don't know about actual IT/Security if you're considering that sort of thing to be a solution to this issue..?
Other side is purvis's also it's not a solution just a temp fix if the AC were to go down again which I've already said if that happens we would probably end up not hosting EGL that week. -
Michaelxv205 wrote: »I agree with this point as well too. If you have an AC with no issues that would be great and would love it if you forwarded to us. We have contacted multiple other AC companies but they all are focused on replacing Xtrap
Unban yeezy no legal warren for teamviewer -
kngkwngkwg wrote: »Unban yeezy no legal warren for teamviewer
http://acp.latin-gamers.com/en/banned -
Michaelxv205 wrote: »Other side is purvis's also it's not a solution just a temp fix if the AC were to go down again which I've already said if that happens we would probably end up not hosting EGL that week.
What, that you enforce players to not restart/clear cache etc on their personal computer? So you're admitting your AC doesn't work right now? so you're going to do forced manual checks on a PC? Thus bypassing countless privacy laws, especially since this rule is being talked about after most people have already signed up..? That's a VERY dodgy legal situation for you...and again, if you have ANY it/security background, you wouldn't even consider that as a possibility...
"Player cannot use any programs that may delete or alter their system files" - so say Jonny Biggs is a coder by trade, and so had programs on his PC to code in various languages, he gets DC'd? This is a very dodgy and sticky area...I'd be VERY cautious before carrying on with this. -
The owner of the pc agreed to have his pc checked out. That's all there is to it. I'm saying all of this in context to what happened saturday. The AC didn't work, it literally banned people for anything some got banned some didn't. It wasn't functional so as a community we agreed to use moss or bandicam. People allowed us to check their PC's if needed be. I'm not saying it's a well thought out ruling but it doesn't matter if it is or not because it wouldn't happen past saturday. The AC became functional again near 8pm est yesterday.
Edit: It was even said if you guys don't want to play this week we understand. -
[MOD]NattNatt wrote: »That can all be bypassed and gotten around fairly easily though...If someone is willing to risk running cheats, they'll probably have enough knowledge of how to bypass simple things like that. Just saying that relying on "but they can check x,y or z" tactics can never work.
Like Zzxq said - you need something that reports back during the match, if you don't rely on that, it shows you have 0 trust in your AC, so why would anyone else? Outside of the match people can do anything they want, no-one should have to prove they don't cheat, it is the League/Organisations duty to prove they did, through Anti-Cheat logs. Yes, there are MAJOR privacy issues in place with that. And you cannot bring a rule like that in mid-tournament and expect players to do it because you decided. Something that big has to be said from the start, so people know what they're signing up for before it starts...but it's still a scary move by ANY company to demand access to your PC - without a legal warrant, you cannot demand that.
Not trying to start anything here, but I'm fairly certain warrants are only needed if it is a forced entry. If we were to force him into using teamviewer we would need a warrant. But we didnt. On the thread that was deleted (HelloFY vs Envy) he stated "you can come on my teamviewer i dont care" after i posted the pictures of the taskbar having a unknown program running. He gave us permission. in that case we wouldnt need a warrant.
Again... not trying to start anything just stating my opinion.
![[MOD]Zzxq](https://z8games.akamaized.net/cfna/forum/customavatars/20/navatar_5345120.gif){kind=avatar}
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