Professionalism?
This has been on my mind since the recent "hattack" on xFam0usx, and I wanted to voice my opinion.
I enjoy watching competitive-level players and teams dueling it out for both money and pride.
Those of you reading this, you might want to notice how I said "competitive". I did not use the word "professional". I wouldn't dream of using the word "professional" given the behavior of nearly every one of your top-of-the-line players and teams.
With that out of the way, let's talk about...
Haccusations.
These should simply not occur. No matter how blatant you think someone is, you discuss it with the player, their team, and the Tournament Operator. You do not make a public attack against the player. Why?
a. You split the community into two camps: those who believe him, and those who believe you.
b. You hurt the player's reputation, your reputation, and the tournament's reputation
c. You alienate non-competitive players from the scene in general, in terms of stream-count and viewership if they hear about the public controversy.
Your goal as a competitive player in a relatively small community is to work toward the common goal of showing that CrossFire can be played professionally. Making bust-videos, haccusating players, or denouncing them as "good off client" only hurts chances of the game (in particular, this version - Go America!) being picked up by legitimate organizations.
With that out of the way, let's talk about...
Pride
No, not the LGBT kind. I'm speaking of the pride that comes along with winning competitions. The pride that comes from beating another team, and being able to say "we outplayed you."
Too often I've read comments on this forum where people say the equivalent of, "Why compete? It's not like there are valid prizes or anything." I've read comments about the Frost Gaming LAN where people said "Go there for the chance to win what, 200 dollars? Yeah right." I've read numerous posts where people mock the tournaments and leagues out there which have no funding for large-scale prizes (or funding in general). Such comments are toxic, and they devalue the competition itself.
At dozens of events worldwide, hundreds of people turn out and compete for various games. The entry fees are often between 25 and 50 dollars, and the cost of travelling there is often in the hundreds. Why? Is it because they think they will win, that they'll beat ProgiY at Mortal Combat, that they'll beat Daigo at SF? Do they think they have a chance of out-micromanaging Flash at SC2?
No.
If you play a game only for the monetary value, you will always be disappointed. The number of people who can play video games and make a living off of it throughout the world is abysmally small. The value of competition is in the pride and the experience of the competition itself.
_____________
This is nothing new. Accusations of cheating have gone on for ages, in all competitive scenes. It won't stop now, especially not because of one post. I simply wished to thresh out my thoughts, and to point out that such accusations should be done in private. The recent events were simply more poignant and disturbing due to it being from "maveloff", one of the premier players in this game.
I enjoy watching competitive-level players and teams dueling it out for both money and pride.
Those of you reading this, you might want to notice how I said "competitive". I did not use the word "professional". I wouldn't dream of using the word "professional" given the behavior of nearly every one of your top-of-the-line players and teams.
With that out of the way, let's talk about...
Haccusations.
These should simply not occur. No matter how blatant you think someone is, you discuss it with the player, their team, and the Tournament Operator. You do not make a public attack against the player. Why?
a. You split the community into two camps: those who believe him, and those who believe you.
b. You hurt the player's reputation, your reputation, and the tournament's reputation
c. You alienate non-competitive players from the scene in general, in terms of stream-count and viewership if they hear about the public controversy.
Your goal as a competitive player in a relatively small community is to work toward the common goal of showing that CrossFire can be played professionally. Making bust-videos, haccusating players, or denouncing them as "good off client" only hurts chances of the game (in particular, this version - Go America!) being picked up by legitimate organizations.
With that out of the way, let's talk about...
Pride
No, not the LGBT kind. I'm speaking of the pride that comes along with winning competitions. The pride that comes from beating another team, and being able to say "we outplayed you."
Too often I've read comments on this forum where people say the equivalent of, "Why compete? It's not like there are valid prizes or anything." I've read comments about the Frost Gaming LAN where people said "Go there for the chance to win what, 200 dollars? Yeah right." I've read numerous posts where people mock the tournaments and leagues out there which have no funding for large-scale prizes (or funding in general). Such comments are toxic, and they devalue the competition itself.
At dozens of events worldwide, hundreds of people turn out and compete for various games. The entry fees are often between 25 and 50 dollars, and the cost of travelling there is often in the hundreds. Why? Is it because they think they will win, that they'll beat ProgiY at Mortal Combat, that they'll beat Daigo at SF? Do they think they have a chance of out-micromanaging Flash at SC2?
No.
If you play a game only for the monetary value, you will always be disappointed. The number of people who can play video games and make a living off of it throughout the world is abysmally small. The value of competition is in the pride and the experience of the competition itself.
_____________
This is nothing new. Accusations of cheating have gone on for ages, in all competitive scenes. It won't stop now, especially not because of one post. I simply wished to thresh out my thoughts, and to point out that such accusations should be done in private. The recent events were simply more poignant and disturbing due to it being from "maveloff", one of the premier players in this game.
Comments
-
how to go about players cheating
i noticed many people say hackusations look silly ruins your rep/tourny rep/other guys rep. but what else can you do if you know/think some one is cheating?
let's be real here, reporting to Z8 generally accomplishes nothing. there was/could be no anti cheats. and it seems to me the last time teams wanted to dispute the other team, the admin complained about having to review all the matches. so wtf are you supposed to do?
there's nothing else to do but take it into your own hands and put your own rep on the line because every one else is too dam lazy to do their job. -
Peter_North wrote: »i noticed many people say hackusations look silly ruins your rep/tourny rep/other guys rep. but what else can you do if you know/think some one is cheating?
let's be real here, reporting to Z8 generally accomplishes nothing. there was/could be no anti cheats. and it seems to me the last time teams wanted to dispute the other team, the admin complained about having to review all the matches. so wtf are you supposed to do?
there's nothing else to do but take it into your own hands and put your own rep on the line because every one else is too dam lazy to do their job.
This may feel like an unsatisfactory answer, but let me or any other MOD know. If it's something to do with a high profile player, we'll be sure to make Saidin aware of it ASAP. -
Peter_North wrote: »i noticed many people say hackusations look silly ruins your rep/tourny rep/other guys rep. but what else can you do if you know/think some one is cheating?
let's be real here, reporting to Z8 generally accomplishes nothing. there was/could be no anti cheats. and it seems to me the last time teams wanted to dispute the other team, the admin complained about having to review all the matches. so wtf are you supposed to do?
there's nothing else to do but take it into your own hands and put your own rep on the line because every one else is too dam lazy to do their job.
There are always ways, that's a poor excuse. You have a dedicated mod team and a GM ready and willing to take the effort if needed. And much more effort has been taken behind the scenes outside of this specific issue last week then you would imagine.
I helped with the LAN knowing I would not win, knowing I would lose money. I had a good time, and I did not accuse anyone of anything. I play to have fun, and I think a lot of us forget why we play video games in the first place
+1 to the poster. -
[MOD]Denxi wrote: »This may feel like an unsatisfactory answer, but let me or any other MOD know. If it's something to do with a high profile player, we'll be sure to make Saidin aware of it ASAP.There are always ways, that's a poor excuse. You have a dedicated mod team and a GM ready and willing to take the effort if needed. And much more effort has been taken behind the scenes outside of this specific issue last week then you would imagine.
I helped with the LAN knowing I would not win, knowing I would lose money. I had a good time, and I did not accuse anyone of anything. I play to have fun, and I think a lot of us forget why we play video games in the first place
all the mods can do is pass the info to saidin. but honestly, i don't trust him. he's made numerous mistakes and everything he says and does is in the best interest of g4box, not of the players. (which is understandable)
in this particular case, he's never going to DQ a player/team unless it's 100% clear as day blatant speed-around-the-map-shoot-through-walls-360 spin-headshot offense.
that's not really helpful since it's not hard to hide some hacks.
2. explain your concerns to the Tournament Host. Upon reviewing the evidence, the Tournament Staff would announce a verdict to either disqualify the team, or to allow the team to play.
well this isn't so different from saidin reviewing a hackusation. will the tournament company/sponsor/host ban a team/player when they aren't 100% sure? highly unlikely. and you can never truly tell if some one is walling or radar GPSing.
i'm not a part of hammertime obviously but i know what it feels like to lose when the other team is cheating and there's nothing that anybody will/can do about it. it's the worst feeling in the world if you're a fierce competitor of any sport.
i have big respect for mav for doing what he did. hackusations should be allowed as long as they try your number 2 option first. if nothing happens, i think it's fair to make hackusation videos, let the community decide if he is legit or not. -
Peter_North wrote: »all the mods can do is pass the info to saidin. but honestly, i don't trust him. he's made numerous mistakes and everything he says and does is in the best interest of g4box, not of the players. (which is understandable)
Couldn't be farther from the truth. He spent hours upon hours (including his own personal time) investigating the evidence and not just by himself. He was granted authority to DQ Famous and his entire team should the evidence presented had been 100% legitimate.Peter_North wrote: »well this isn't so different from saidin reviewing a hackusation. will the tournament company/sponsor/host ban a team/player when they aren't 100% sure?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any organization would ban someone without 100% proof. It would just be plain wrong and unprofessional, wouldn't you agree? Not sure what you're trying to point out here. Saidin went through all the appropriate measures to do what was needed to be done.Peter_North wrote: »i have big respect for mav for doing what he did. hackusations should be allowed as long as they try your number 2 option first. if nothing happens, i think it's fair to make hackusation videos, let the community decide if he is legit or not.
Incorrect. You can not let this community decide when at least half of them are completely biased towards the intended "defendant". That would be as bad as a jury who has already decided the defendant is guilty before the trial has even started. You talk about fair, but then suggest something that is completely unfair and unprofessional. Mav created a completely biased and very skewed video that expressed his own biased opinion and pegged Famous as a cheater from the very beginning. He didn't even attempt to analyze anything in an objective manner, which would have been the "fair" and professional thing to do. Try and disagree with me on that point. You won't be able to. -
Again, thank you everyone.
Peter, you are suggesting that when a player submits their evidence to the moderator or Tournament Staff, and the Tournament Staff does not think that the evidence is worthwhile, you must take matters into your own hands.
By this, you mean that if the Tournament Staff does not think the evidence is conclusive, then the Accusing Player should let the community decide if he is legit or not.
You bring up an interesting point arguing that the Tournament Staff would be biased. Your point highlights the embarrassment of having to admit to no working Anti-Cheat program.
Is this a good idea? Is it better to allow community-wide judgement to occur, instead of the Tournament Staff's conclusion alone? Is it better to post derogatory remarks if the submission of evidence alone is not enough? Do you have a moral obligation to convince as many people as possible that Player Y is a cheater?
Hm...
The Flaw
The problems with this line of thinking are tri-fold.
1. You undermine the authority of the Tournament Staff. By taking matters into your own hands, you show disregard for an established protocol. This can potentially lead to other issues as future decisions by Tournament Staff are more likely to be questioned, haggled with, and debased. This in turn undermines their authority more...and the spiral continues downward. Appealing to mob-mentality over Official Verdicts is what you are suggesting.
2. You split the community. I have outlined the problems caused by this in my initial post. Those who believe the Accused Player will attack you, and those who believe you will attack the Accused Player. Both of your reputations will suffer, and people may become embittered by the haccusation.
3. Confirmation bias exists. Consider the following scenarios. In the first, the Accusing Player believes that Player Y is a cheater. He looks at the evidence he has, and it seems inherently obvious that Player Y is cheating. However, when the Accusing Player submits this evidence to the Tournament Staff, they believe that the evidence is inconclusive. Is it more likely thata. the Accusing Player is viewing things in a biased light, orb. the Tournament Staff are viewing things in a biased light?
Maveloff demonstrated this bias very well in his video. "Everyone says that he cheats, but nobody understands how."
Conclusion
You bring up an interesting point arguing that the Tournament Staff would be biased. Your point highlights the embarrassment of having to admit to no working Anti-Cheat program.
In response to this, I simply point out that they already admit to having no working Anti-Cheat program; they use Bandicam. As I have argued in another thread, there is no embarrassment in correcting a mistake, or in catching a cheater. There is no benefit gained from ignoring valid evidence. In fact, catching a cheater simply proves that the Anti-Cheat measures used were effective.
In final conclusion, I will leave you with a quote."Everything you look for, and all that you perceive,
has a way of proving whatever you believe." -
[MOD]Polleus wrote: »Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any organization would ban someone without 100% proof. It would just be plain wrong and unprofessional, wouldn't you agree?
Incorrect. You can not let this community decide when at least half of them are completely biased towards the intended "defendant". That would be as bad as a jury who has already decided the defendant is guilty before the trial has even started. You talk about fair, but then suggest something that is completely unfair and unprofessional.
i agree with you. you shouldn't ban some one unless it's 100%. but since things like gps and walls are never 100%. there's a flaw and nothing can be done.
i'm not saying 'let the community decide to DQ/ban him or not' i'm just saying let the video hang around so people can see and make their own personal opinion.
if you play legit, there won't be a problem. it's impossible to be fishy when you're legit.
2. You split the community. I have outlined the problems caused by this in my initial post. Those who believe the Accused Player will attack you, and those who believe you will attack the Accused Player. Both of your reputations will suffer, and people may become embittered by the haccusation.
is splitting the community really a bad thing? how boring would the nhl be if every one got along. same thing here. it adds fire, it will increase views.
like i said before, legit players won't have an issue. they'll be cleared after the opposing team watches replay. -
Peter_North wrote: »i'm not saying 'let the community decide to DQ/ban him or not' i'm just saying let the video hang around so people can see and make their own personal opinion
What would be the point of leaving the video around then? When people make their own opinions and voice those opinions, the community is essentially "deciding" what they believe SHOULD be done with them.
Most hackusation videos are already biased and from the skewed opinion of the video maker who believes a person is cheating. In this case, there was no attempt to allow for an objective approach. It's already decided before the video even starts that the person is cheating. That's not in any way fair or professional. If a video was made that allowed for BOTH sides to be explored and or explained, that's a different story. However most hackusation videos are not made that way. A video of this kind just causes more problems than necessary and ultimately poisons the community rather than helping it. -
Peter_North wrote: »
if you play legit, there won't be a problem. it's impossible to be fishy when you're legit.
is splitting the community really a bad thing? how boring would the nhl be if every one got along. same thing here. it adds fire, it will increase views.
like i said before, legit players won't have an issue. they'll be cleared after the opposing team watches replay.
Fam0us and numerous other players are legit and many competitive players consider them fishy... due to their skill level being beyond theirs.
Splitting the community is never a bad thing, but this community in particular get's very immature and doesn't look at the facts. The nhl, on the other hand, has professional support that can claim whether or not something was considered "cheated". So does the nba, with referees, although they make calls that people don't like, there's many referees not just one to make upon the decision. -
Peter_North wrote: »all the mods can do is pass the info to saidin. but honestly, i don't trust him. he's made numerous mistakes and everything he says and does is in the best interest of g4box, not of the players. (which is understandable)
in this particular case, he's never going to DQ a player/team unless it's 100% clear as day blatant speed-around-the-map-shoot-through-walls-360 spin-headshot offense.
that's not really helpful since it's not hard to hide some hacks.
I've worked with him. I trust him. Simple as that. If someone is using something, then they will be appropriately dealt with. It's not in G4 box's best interest to have a cheater within the game.
I won't go into details, but if you read his stickied review, they did quite the extensive review of the details and records they had to go on. What more could they possibly have done with the information and video's they had?
Community opinion on these matters usually are a bad thing in competitive scene. It too easily leads down to the road to thrashing and thread after thread of discussion without any conclusive outcome or decision (As we've seen clearly in this case). Leave it up to your moderating team as that's the job their given. -
It's not in G4 box's best interest to have a cheater within the game.
yes it is. why do you think xtrap gives just a 3 day ban when it catches your illegal program? it knows you're hacking. you don't get perm banned until the 3rd or 4th time you get caught. and you're also allowed to make something like 5 characters per machine if you're a caught cheater.
they've always been easy on cheaters. they even made mods out of people that have admitted to cheating before.
they really don't care. it's all about the $. they'd rather not have hacks but since they do, they make sure to suck out all of the cash out of them before they are gone for good. which takes a while. -
Peter_North wrote: »yes it is. why do you think xtrap gives just a 3 day ban when it catches your illegal program? it knows you're hacking. you don't get perm banned until the 3rd or 4th time you get caught. and you're also allowed to make something like 5 characters per machine if you're a caught cheater.
they've always been easy on cheaters. they even made mods out of people that have admitted to cheating before.
they really don't care. it's all about the $. they'd rather not have hacks but since they do, they make sure to suck out all of the cash out of them before they are gone for good. which takes a while.
Of course every company wants money, lets not be crazy. G4 is a business.
But what your implying is that cheating brings in revenue. Which it does not. Xtrap is not free, support people answering tickets is not free. People watching replays are not free. Saidin is a paid employee who reviews these as well, which is not free.
If you could eliminate the cheaters in a cost effective solution, would you not think they would have done so by now?
I don't understand your argument. The more people cheat, the less people are inclined to play for a game where others can get the advantage of them.
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